User talk:Dalinian

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Dalinian, the wiki is not a personal record of your achievments. You are not required to update it every time you complete a quest or kill a monster. Please limit your updates. --Eugene 06:52, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Hi Eugene, thanks for letting me know your thoughts.

As a noob, I'm finding KoL to be delightfully silly, complex and multi-dimensional. So I'm aware of my need to keep track of what's what, who's who and what my Turtle Tamer's got her eye on acquiring, assimilating or assassinating. Since wiki-editing is so easy, and hot-linking places, people and possibilities is so useful, I'm choosing to use my User page as a notepad on which to keep my KoL-playing notes.

And I wouldn't dream of taking without giving. When I see an opportunity to compliment and enhance this already stupendously useful wiki, I take it -- for instance, by adding a reference (eg A Bard Day's Night, Leonard Cohen & Tom Jones refs), template (eg Template:Housing) or tidy-up (eg Muscle / Mysticality / Moxie).

I've even had complementary kmail regarding my User page, eg:

From NewZorkBat (#549946) 
Date: Monday, January 02, 12:33PM
I found your name on my beloved KOL wiki, and I like your user page there (no matter what the admins say); 
I've ascended as each one of the six classes in softcore and I'm now doing hardcore for the first time. 
And with no mall access for the first time - I like to confuse myself over items ;) anyway I thought your 
user page was a good overview, as it happened twice already that I read things there that I had forgotten 
about myself (which in inconvenient in hardcore).

Although I didn't anticipate others finding my playing notes useful, why the wiki not?

So while I can probably reduce the frequency of my updates (is this for bandwidth reasons?), I'd like to continue with my note-taking.

Warm regards, --Dalinian 11:14, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

  • I think it's more for reasons of not cluttering up the Recent Changes page so much that others have a hard(er) time to keep track of the changes. If you update your page once a day or so it shouldn't be a problem (I suppose). :) --NewZorkBat 11:21, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

  • Well, editing pages is what uses the most wiki bandwidth/resources. Each edited/previewed page has to be dynamically created, and each edit requires a new version to be saved. Viewing pages, just requires a cached wiki page to be displayed (the page does not need to be re-created from the database from scratch). So first of all, you should use the 'Show preview' button to preview changes before saving, instead of saving a page 3 times in two minutes, which stores extaneous versions of a page in it's page history. After slowly filtering through the ole' player pages, I've come to realize that any user page which requires to be updated more than a few times a week, is just basic ever-changing user info which is already publically available via the in-game KoL profile system. If a stat changes daily, how is it useful to anyone but its author. The same with (ascension) checklists, todo lists, want lists, etc.: they are not usful to anyone but the author and require to be updated often, maybe even multiple times a day. Things like that belong on a notebook, etc. sitting next to your computer or (what I do) copied to a text file on your desktop. I chuck new content and/or reminders in a few little text files on the desktop. I mean no one else but me cares that my ghost pickle needs 27 more kills and I have to not forget to get the pagoda tomorrow. I always peruse the the Recent Changes to monitor changes made by new users and new pages being created, and when a page is being edited 10 times a day, it sticks out (especially when using the advanced view of the recent changes). Acutally I really don't care what anyone puts in their user page, it's just when the wiki slows down to a crawl when I'm trying to fix errors or add new content but can't because everyone is editing their user pages 45 times in 4 days. :-P. If you edited it a few times a week, I wouldn't even notice it. Or maybe I never find anyting useful because I've done it all so much I can do most of it out of habit, but it seems all the info you have listed can (easily) be found elsewhere on the wiki. There are some alternative-to-the-wiki spoiler sites listed on the Community page if you find the wiki slow or hard to navigate, and the wiki is always welcome to Discussion, and alternatively, Discussion. --JRSiebz (|§|) 17:16, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

  • Zorks right; your more than welcome to put whatever you want on your userpage, the problem is that when I look over recent changes (something I do reasonably frequently; its a good way of catching vandalism, discussions and other such) im presented with a list of around 100 things; if 50 of them are listed as "user: dalinian", its creates a helluvalotta mess. Additionally, the wiki stores each version of each update; its gets very clutterly.

Thank you for your other edits (which incidentally, I had already checked over to make sure you weren't using the wiki simply as a personal dumping ground ;) ), keep up the good work, but please, please limit your updates. Remember theres a preview button, and if you make a mistake by all means correct it, but *at most* 1 update a day is more than sufficient. Ideally, 1 update per ascension would make me go away and never bother you again. If you need to take notes, notepad usually works wonder for me. (sidenote: the issue with admins not liking player pages has been resolved, when JRSiebz moved most user pages to their actual user: pages. You guys can go nuts with user: pages now, as long as its kept mature :) )

Edit: also, what JRSiebz said. Snuck in as I was typing >_> --Eugene 17:24, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Eugene and JRSiebz -- thanks for clarifying above the issues with which you're concerned. I'll do my best to assimilate and implement your helpful suggestions. I wonder if there may be methods or configurations within Mediawiki to make things even easier or us all? What springs to mind is:

  1. Do you set your Special:Preferences > Recent changes and stub display to Hide minor edits in recent changes? If so I could tag all my (reduced number of) User page changes with This is a minor edit, so they wouldn't show up.
  2. If changes to User pages are generally irrelevant, then Special:Recentchanges > Namespace: User > (tick) Invert selection > Go excludes them all; and putting the resulting URL on a browser toolbar button means your RecentChanges-without-UserPageChanges page is only ever one click away; would this work for you?
  3. Is there a way for an admin or sysop to tag a page for exclusion from the Special:Recentchanges page?
  4. Or maybe some better technical solution that your more experienced intuition suggests?

Thanks in advance for your creative attention. --Dalinian 19:06, 2 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

  • How about you just stop fuggin' using this as your own little statistics page. Shove the info in the word document. There's your "technical solution" to it. Pratically all the info on your page can be found elsewhere on the site, this is nothing more than your own bloody checklist, which is not what user pages are for

To quote from the Proposed Standards :

  • Don't use the wiki to host your personal website.
    • This includes completely Un-KOL-related images, and stuff like that.
  • Don't be a bandwidth-vampire in some other intentionally vague way. -TDG 17:10, 8 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

TDG -- Thanks for your many contributions to Visual KoL Wiki. I'm sorry you weren't able to express yourself without resorting to angry vulgarity. One might argue I should make allowances for youthful inexperience, or conversely that you've grown up immersed in net culture and should therefore know better. To give you the benefit of the doubt, assuming ignorance rather than malice, here's some brief guidelines extracted from a reliable source:
"In general, rules of common courtesy for interaction with people should be in force for any situation and on the Internet it's doubly important.

  • A good rule of thumb: Be conservative in what you send and liberal in what you receive. You should not send heated messages (we call these "flames") even if you are provoked.
  • Wait overnight to send emotional responses to messages. If you have really strong feelings about a subject, indicate it via FLAME ON/OFF enclosures. For example:
    • FLAME ON: This type of argument is not worth the bandwidth it takes to send it. It's illogical and poorly reasoned. The rest of the world agrees with me.
    • FLAME OFF."

Source: RFC 1855 Netiquette Guidelines

That said, rather than dismiss your comment as flamebait, I'll deal with the points you raise.

  • "Don't use the wiki to host your personal website." As explained above and on User:Dalinian, I'm using User:Dalinian as a KoL-playing aid, which I think falls outside of any common definition of personal website.
    • "This includes completely Un-KOL-related images, and stuff like that." Thanks to JRSiebz's guidance, the two small avatar images are hosted offsite.
  • "Don't be a bandwidth-vampire in some other intentionally vague way." Following comments by Eugene and JRSiebz above, I've limited saves to around one per day.

While I understand that using one's User page in this way is unconventional, and that perhaps everyone else uses other methods, nevertheless I trust it's not prohibited. As I've stated at the top of my User page, "what's below may be most likely irrelevant to you", and I hope you'd agree that life's to short and precious to spend getting angry at irrelevancies. --Dalinian 19:33, 8 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

  • Sorry bout being rude earlier - real life troubles with parents was "angering me" so to speak - but anyway, if you are using it as a player guide, then you could shorten it a bit to make it more user friendly. Things like the text you get from the Council could be reduced to a quick link etc.
However, I am still led to the conclusion that you are using this primarily as a checklist of things to do and what you have, rather than a user guide as you state. My main reasoning of this would derive from this quote from your page...
"Since wiki-editing is so easy, and internally hot-linking places, people and possibilities is so useful, I'm choosing to use my User page as a notepad on which to keep my KoL-playing notes."
Which to me would seem to be a way of using the wikipedia as a method of hosting your personal information, relevant mainly to you. Which in my books is using it as a personal website.
However, despite my dispute on the purpose of your page, I do agree that I acted like an ass before when I shouldn't have, and for that I apologise -TDG 20:06, 8 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)

TDG -- Thanks for your apology, which I accept, and for your impressive self-awareness, which I respect.

  • I'm sorry you misinterpreted my KoL-playing aid as a player or user guide -- it isn't, and I hope I haven't tried to represent it as one. For greater clarity, I've added a Caution: This Page Is NOT A Player Guide sub-head to the intro box.
  • While I respect your argument that my KoL-playing aid usage constitutes using "the wiki to host your personal website," I beg to differ. Surely a personal website promotes a person's point of view, furthers their interests and disseminates their news by means of reports, blogs, photos/videos, etc? I'm merely playing KoL in a more public way than most players choose to do.
  • Here's a summary of opinions on this usage so far:
    • "I thought your user page was a good overview, as it happened twice already that I read things there that I had forgotten about myself (which in inconvenient in hardcore)." --NewZorkBat
    • "I really don't care what anyone puts in their user page." --JRSiebz
    • "your more than welcome to put whatever you want on your userpage; also, what JRSiebz said." --Eugene
    • "this is nothing more than your own bloody checklist, which is not what user pages are for." --TDG

Perhaps if there's a groundswell of hostility against my using my User page as a KoL-playing aid, I'll consider using a desktop file instead. For now, I'm finding it very useful in learning KoL and wiki-editing, and I hope the tolerant libertarian attitude expressed in the first three comments above prevails in the KoL Wiki community. --Dalinian 09:47, 10 January 2006 (Central Standard Time)