Talk:The Packrat

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Does this sign improve Pickpocketing?

Is it possible that this sign would increase the success rate of pickpocketing? I know that pickpocketing hasn't been around that long but could there be a link?

  • It seems for me, with my disco bandit, I manage to pick pocket items most of the time since I have this sign, has anyone else tried it with their sign being none/other classes? --The neko jimbob 22:14, 16 October 2007 (CDT)
Since pickpocketing was added after the zodiac signs were created, you're looking in the wrong place. The zodiac signs will modify a mechanic that existed at the time that they were designed!--QuantumNightmare 22:38, 16 October 2007 (CDT)

How does this sign increase Item Drops?

Pretty sure there's truth to this rumor. I've tried three different signs so far and I was getting many more item drops as a Packrat. For example--near to 200 Imp Ales as a Packrat vs. about 1/4th of that gathered between two other signs.

I don't believe it gave me quest item adventures like the ones for the Friars any faster, though. Just more of the standard drops.

It certainly seemed to improve my item drops, too. I'm not sure about quest item adventures; I did seem to get most of my quest items very quickly (1-3 adventures) when I was a Packrat, but I'm getting them pretty quickly now as a Blender, too, and didn't get seem to get them quickly with either a Myst or Muscle sign. Perhaps all the Moxie signs have that effect?

By the way, you can use ~~~~ to auto-sign your input with your name and a date/time stamp, so people know who's asking the question. -- Old Ned 19:37, 15 Jul 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

There was a thread on the forums concerning Packrat, and it showed no difference in item drops. Granted the loaction and sample size was poor, but if the effect was anything substancial it probably should have been apparent anyway. --Supernova163 07:23, 17 April 2006 (CDT)

My multi did a Packrat run. In the Beanbat Chamber, where the drop rate is known to be 50%, he fought 1000 beanbats and got 496 enchanted beans. Seems to me there's no item drop bonus, unless it's item-specific -- like booze-only or equipment-only. —Dentarthurdent(T,C) 10:48, 2 September 2006 (CDT)

My experience regarding the Packrat sign is that it allows monsters to drop FOUR items max instead of three. I've had it happen once with an Orcish Frat Boy and more than three times with star monsters in the HitS. --'Ivan 11:40, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

  • Critters have had more than 3 items droppable for a long time now. The Fratboys all have 4 possible drops, and the 2 "new" HitS monsters (Bishop and T&B) each drop 2 stars and 2 lines. The Booze Giant drops all 6 boozes, and the Shaky Clown can drop 8 different items. All of these monsters (and more) can drop all of their items at once, regardless of your sign. --Hellion 12:48, 15 September 2006 (CDT)

This could just be a hunch, but seeing as its called the Packrat, maybe it has something to do with the chance of getting items from item giving items, such as the Frozen Mob Penguin? Sounds dumb, but could be it. --Jimbobjim 09:37, 15 October 2006 (CDT)

I would like to add in the discussion that it is possible it increases meat drops. I personaly doubt this, but it is possible --Co678 19:02, 7 December 2006 (CST)

I rewrote it, and wants people to test the untested theories.

Alright, I know this has been up for a while, but I need to bring this up: "It was supposed to increase max inventory space (like the containers), but now does nothing." This is not a reasonable theory. Inventory sizes were phased out long before Ascension was rolled out. --MrPaulie 19:43, 7 December 2006 (CST)

While it has nothing to do with items... it's probably worth noting that on my latest ascension (Packrat), I always got 50's on nondamaging Hidden Temple adventures, or 75's on stat days. (I did this on several different days, and saw no variation at all. Didn't experiment with Trapstravaganza though.) I'll see what happens on my next one (under a different sign at the moment). --Spinballwizard 21:16, 9 January 2007 (CST)

  • That would have been due to your level - stat gains in the hidden temple scale with your stats and max out at 50. --Quietust (t|c) 21:16, 18 January 2007 (CST)

•from the name perhaps it has to do with auto-sale? pherhaps at times you keep a random item.Or possibly randomly get paid more on a random item.--Mesth 10:01, 4 February 2007 (CST)

•I've done a number of Packrat runs now, and there seems to be a constant: I get quest items VERY quickly. So it's not a higher item drop percentage, it's quest items. Much more useful for HC runs. --[[User:ChaChaCha] 13:43, 22 September 2007 (CST)

Do Packrat and Wallaby share the same mechanics?

Now that the insane First-round-activation-only mechanic from The Wallaby has been identified, it's worth checking whether packrat works the same way -- that is, it increases item drops on one-hit kills with auto attack but not otherwise.--DirkDiggler 16:01, 12 February 2007 (CST)

Did anybody ever ask toot oriole about packrat? Heady 19:11, 8 March 2007 (CST)

Could it be a better chance at pickpocket? Cause that would screw over non-moxie classes. Nagyss 01:04, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Extraordinarily doubtful. Pickpocketing has been around since January '07, while the zodiac signs have been around since June '05. --TechSmurf 01:28, 9 June 2007 (CDT)

Is the effect effected by moonlight?

I just got very lucky(?) getting 6 goat cheese from fighting 6 dairy goats for the Mt. McLargHuge Quest with 48%(40%) item drop chance. Has anybody checked out if the effect of the sign is somehow effect by moonlight? Since both moons are dark at the moment. Maybe it works in the same matter as the Wereseal for example.--Popovitsj 19:07, 15 March 2007 (CDT)

Does anybody know what this was supposed to mean?

"When the computer generates a random number to determine what items drop, it rolls a high number."

I removed this one because it made less sense to me than installing a screen door on a submarine. For one thing, rolling a high number makes it no longer random, plus I think rolling LOW numbers was what made items drop. Does anybody have any idea what this is talking about? --Poochy 20:30, 7 May 2007 (CDT)


Over the past two months, I've been working on correct the range of meat dropped by monsters...and testing whether or not a theory I had about meat drops would hold true. It was, but it was conflicting with the meat drops listed in the wiki.

I noticed that the conflict was always the high end was almost always 3 higher than my high end, although the low end was the same. I began to suspect that it was possible that some hidden factor was affecting meat drops.

I ascending a multi of mine into a Packrat sign, and made sure I didn't retain any meat+ skills. I ran that character against another in the Entryway. Here's what I got:

Zombie Bomb, Packrat, Disco Bandit, level 4

  • Albino Bat, 16-27 (58 adventures)
  • Pine Bat, 18-28 (67 adventures)
  • Regular Bat, 18-29 (65 adventures)

Anat, unascended, Pastamancer, level 7

  • Albino Bat, 16-24 (62 adv)
  • Pine Bat, 18-26 (72 adv)
  • Regular Bat, 18-26 (66 adv)

The latter set of data is consistent with what I've found for every monster I've tested. The Packrat data is consistent with what I've found in the Wiki.

I need to test with a few other zones...more importantly, I'd like to test an unascended Disco Bandit. What I will mention is that almost all of the Disco Bandit data I've been examining has been with the passive meat boost, but I've never had the +3 after adjusting for the passive meat boost.

So in short, Packrat...looking likely to add 0-3 meat to meat drops at the end of combat. --Foggy 10:05, 17 December 2007 (CST)

  • Interesting findings - should probably try those in the Castle as well, just to check if it's a percentage rather than a static boost. --Quietust (t|c) 10:20, 17 December 2007 (CST)

It'll be a little while before I can get to the castle, but I decided to run my packrat through the Treasury, where the monsters at least have a higher range.

Packrat: Bean Counter: 48-77 (93 adv) Elite Guardsman: 40-64 (93 adv)

I need a few more days to run him through the Treasury, since there are a lot of gaps (between 70 and 77, I only have data points at 71 and 73.) The ranges I had had for these two were 48-72 and 40-60 respectively. Note that this isn't a simple percentage increase, as the lower end is still the same.--Foggy 07:57, 19 December 2007 (CST)

Just an update: now that Crimbo's almost over, I set my packrat DB back on the spading track.

At 307 adventures, Bean Counters drop 48-79. Elite guardsmen drop 40-64 beans, at 277 adventures.

I'm still going to take a couple more days of spading with this character in the Treasury, then move onto another zone.--Foggy 08:58, 31 December 2007 (CST)

Another update: at 624 adventures, my range for the Bean Counter is 48-80 (average 61), at 634 adventures Guard is 40-65 (average 51). Switching off to another zone...--Foggy 13:38, 6 January 2008 (CST)

-Can anyone confirm what Foggy is saying? --typelogin 09:05, 16 January 2008 (Zulu)

I'd be interested in fluffy bunny data, actually. The range there is pretty tight (7-9 meat), so even a small bonus will be very visible. That being said, watch out: meat drops were changed in NS-13. My method of spading meat drop bonuses involved spending many thousand turns killing beanbats with every conceivable +meat effect, and those things dropped 28-43 meat in NS11. 28-40 dropped regularly, and 41-43 were very rare but possible drops. In NS-13, beanbats just drop 28-40 meat, with the rare higher end being eliminated. None of my characters were ever packrat during this work. So be aware that the wiki data being a bit higher than you see in practice is most likely just an out-of-data wiki still giving you NS-11 information.--QuantumNightmare 08:02, 16 January 2008 (CST)

As a follow-up, I've been testing the Black Forest and Orc Chasm. The former will take some time, but the data is coming out nicely. The problem is trying to express it concisely, and more important, figure out it if its Packrat-related vs. Disco Bandit related.--Foggy 13:22, 8 February 2008 (CST)

I ascended a multi as a seal clubber packrat and I'm currently testing fluffy bunny drops. Out of 50 adventures I got 10 meat 3 times, which does not happen without packrat. --Eleron 22:24, 24 February 2008 (CST)

Packrat definitely increases meat drops, but doesn't appear to use +meat% mechanics. I'm continuing to spade the effects, currently guessing that it sometimes increases base meat drops. --Eleron 00:38, 28 February 2008 (CST)

The meat drop bonus is a percentage increase of up to 10% that only happens occasionally, applied independently of meat from monsters modifiers. I don't see a way to determine more accurate results without massive spading, so any help from others would be appreciated :). I'm spading fluffy bunnies and beanbats so they are preferred, but any logs from hundreds to thousands of fights against the same monster would be greatly appreciated. Non-packrat data is also very useful to compare results. --Eleron 05:33, 1 March 2008 (CST)

  • So...this has an effective 2.5% multiplier on all other multipliers? e.g., if I have +500% meat and Packrat, then Packrat gives me an effective 15% boost? --Deusnoctum 18:32, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
    • Short answer: Yes. Long Answer: Packrat first increases the base meat drops, and then your +500% is calculated upon the increased amount.-QuantumNightmare 19:14, 25 March 2008 (CDT)


I'd guess there is a 25% chance at the end of each combat to get a +5% item drop bonus, or a 12.5% chance of +10%.--Eleron 16:05, 27 March 2008 (CDT)

Data? (The best way to test this, btw, would be to run at -100% item drops with packrat until you get an item.)--Starwed 03:23, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Getting -100% item drops seems like a challenge. You'd have to go fight crusty hippies until you got hit with socialsmydia if you aren't in Bad Moon (and haven't taken envy). --Flargen 03:40, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Yeah, it's a bit annoying... (that's how I spaded the socialsmydia penalty in the first place, of course.) BM doesn't work, since you can't be BM and packrat at the same time. You can drink white lightnings and wear a turban for double the blindness benefit, but unfortunately that's limited to 18 turns a day. --Starwed 05:32, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Technically, you could get 21 turns of double-blindness per day if you also drink white lightning for your nightcap (the final 3 turns would simply wrap around to the next day), plus an additional 5 if you have a PYEC. --Quietust (t|c) 07:44, 17 April 2008 (CDT)
Ah, yes, I'd forgotten that the turban stacks with the white lightning. --Flargen 13:45, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Data is that items drop with double blindness and +50% from phat loot + items. That's rather old news, but I wanted it back on the main page now that I have an estimate of the drop rate. The exact amount and mechanics are still not clear, but it's present and almost certainly below 2%, most likely 1% or 1.25%.--Eleron 08:04, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

However, the sporadic bonuses being as high as +5% or +10% as guessed earlier seems rather unlikely at the moment, as the data corresponds closer to a simple permanent bonus of +1% item drops. This seems like something that would be discovered already, but the boost cannot be significantly higher than 1-2% and thus must occur most of the time to match the observed drops.--Eleron 08:07, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

The bonus definitely isn't permanent, the exact mechanic is still unknown, and 1% is merely a guess at the average effect.--Eleron 13:01, 19 April 2008 (CDT)

Snippets of aggregated data:

Packrat, double-blind, +49% items: 0 drops / 126 adventures
Packrat, double-blind, +50% items: 4 drops / 167 adventures
Wombat, double-blind, +50% items: 0 drops / 210 adventures
Wombat, double-blind, +51% items: 2 drops / 125 adventures

--Eleron 08:12, 17 April 2008 (CDT)

Doesn't the makeshift SCUBA gear give -100% item drop? --Shademaster00 15:20, 20 August 2008 (CDT)

  • Yes, but it appears to have been made that way within the past few months (i.e. some time in May 2008). --Quietust (t|c) 15:28, 20 August 2008 (CDT)


I haven't tried to spade it out, but I seem to get a significantly higher percentage of trinket drops in the sewer in Packrat, and the effect seems to increase with character level. My Level 21 Disco Bandit just fished in the Sewer 6 times and got 5 trinkets and a box of spices - no entry-level startup items at all. Until today I just assumed this was a known feature of the sign, since packrats are noted for collecting useless trinkets. --k4f 10:26, 20 August 2008 (CDT)

  • I just spent 50 adventures in the sewer as a level 20 Packrat Accordion Thief. I got 24 worthless items and 26 level 1 items. Doesn't look to me like Packrat has an effect, but who knows. Johnny Treehugger 11:04, 20 August 2008 (CDT)
    • Well, I can't just delete this now, since Johnny Treehugger kindly commented on my speculation that Packrat gives more trinket drops in the Sewer. I just got the same RNG result with another character in a different moon sign. It may be character level and/or number of ascensions that gave me such good RNG luck.

--k4f 20:27, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

Item Drops

Using a level 13 Disco Bandit with 20% passive, Big Veiny Brain, Wasabi Sinuses, and makeshift scuba gear, gives me -100% item drops. Nothing should drop. Ran 228 adventures in the 8-bit realm, and got 1 black pixel. Dropped from a Koopa. So there is some effect on item drops going on with Packrat, but it's looking pretty weak. (If you want to the math, that's 1 black pixel from 22 Bullet Bills, 32 Koopas, 32 Tektites, and 29 Buzzy Beetles total, along with 26 Zol, 26 Oktorok, 28 Keese, and 33 Blooper).--Foggy 23:38, 5 January 2011 (UTC)