Talk:Pickpocket

From TheKolWiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Initial Thoughts

A clannie of mine stole the tires from a tire juggler and then did not receive them after combat. This proves that once an item is stolen, it is removed from the set of items a monster drops, and you can only get what is left at end of combat. (because the tires are 100% drop from tire juggler)--Whiskey Jack 17:09, 9 January 2007 (CST)

  • I can also confirm that once you steal an item, the monster loses it. I raised the quantum mechic's item drop of the large box to 100%, and stole it. I didn't get one afterwards. Also, I stole the vorpal blade a bit more often than the box. --UglyPanda 17:44, 9 January 2007 (CST)
    • It might be that the drop chance is reduced, rather than the item completely eliminated. (Although the latter seems more likely to me.) --Starwed 05:00, 10 January 2007 (CST)
  • I can confirm that if a monster could drop multiple of an item, like lines and stars, and you steal one, you can still drop more from other drop positions. -Pixsi
  • Just as a note, I stole a spider web in the Sleazy Alley, and then got another from defeating the spider. If they can drop two, that would refute the idea that it is impossible to get an item from stealing and from winning the battle. Maybe they can, though.
    • Thats because both spiders can drop 2 webs, which is why you got 2 webs. --RPGMarker35 20:00, 14 February 2007 (CST)

Proved:

--MagiNinjA 20:10, 9 January 2007 (CST)

I just saw this so pardon the double edit, but, Jick just said that Torso Awaregness does NOT affect pickpocketing of a possible shirt. Questions: Is it possible to get a shirt from pickpocketing? Is there an order to how pickpocket chooses an item? --MagiNinjA 20:14, 9 January 2007 (CST)

  • Jick chooses his words carefully: He said that having a shirt drop available does not make any *other* items *less* stealable. But he didn't say whether that's because you can't steal shirts at all or because of some other mechanism, so your questions are valid. --Jonrock 02:28, 10 January 2007 (CST)
  • Instead of having a listing of every single monster and its drops, Pickpocketing should be listed on the monster's page, with a list of 'special monster pockets' added to the Pickpocket skill.. --Terry 02:21, 10 January 2007 (CST)

What needs to be spaded is things like, after stealing a dead mimic and running away or getting beat up, can it be stolen/dropped again when the mimic returns after rollover? --mLegion 12:08, 10 January 2007 (CST)

To-Hit chance

I saw someone questioning the moxie-based to hit chance. Did some testing with celerity: got 9 pickpokets out of 12. Switched to Aria of annoyance: got 10 pickpokets out of 20. Sample size is actually too small, but this could indicate that to hit is based on initiative, rather than moxie. Anyone cares to ampliate the sample size by doing his own investigations?--Worthstream 05:43, 10 January 2007 (CST)

I don't think it's moxie based. My base moxie is 315, and 337 buffed. I got stuff from the ninja snowmen 5 times out of 10. If it was moxie-based, I would have definitely gotten more than that. Juansidious 11:09, 10 January 2007 (CST)

I don't think that this is moxie based. I have 432 moxie unbuffed, and still have a success rate of about 50% from enemies in the goatlet Duzell 2:49, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Article mentions that pickpocketing is moxie based...please edit? It might based on item drops though. Which is tentative, mind you. --MagiNinjA 01:12, 11 January 2007 (CST)

But the initiative article says that main stat affects the rate of getting the jump. --Bagatelle 11:06, 14 January 2007 (CST)

Unthievable monsters

  • Mimic (Cloak) : The option to pick its pocket does not even appear. --Jonrock 23:09, 9 January 2007 (CST)
    • ... although I didn't triple check that I got the jump on it, so now I'm not sure. Dammit. --Jonrock 23:13, 9 January 2007 (CST)

I can confirm that yes, you CAN pickpocket the mimic, and I got a dead mimic from it, though (as per the rules mentioned earlier) a dead mimic did not also drop when I killed it.--Eevle 05:38, 10 January 2007 (CST)

- Question: If you pickpocket the Mimic, get the Dead Mimic, and run, can you get the adventure again the following day? Because if you lose/run to the Mimic, you can get it again in the same ascension the following day. But does having a dead mimic/wand disable this adventure?--Wildfire393 14:56, 10 January 2007 (CST)

  • It appears that this is the case. However, all wands run on the same heat level. If you blow up one wand, then the second will ALWAYS explode the next time you try to use it that day. (However, if you run every time, you will be guaranteed 2 'zaps' per day rather than 1, as long as you take the time to get the wand every day.) --AtroPhied 18:11, 11 January 2007 (CST)
  • If the mimic is pickpocketable why is he still in the "cannot pickpocket" list? Do we have any other corroborating tests? --rholliday 21:10, 14 January 2007 (CST)
    • Originally the mimic was pickpocketable, but the devs changed it since it was realized that one could obtain more than one wand. --TheDotGamer 21:24, 14 January 2007 (CST)

my multi has 307 moxie. i am testing in the harem, and am almost always failing. most likely not moxie based, or perhaps some function of moxie and item drop percentage? ~russianspy1234

I've tested 100 adv with and 100 without pickpocket at the castle with roughly 65% item increase. without pick - 143 items, with - 150 items. This is too small of an amount of data to draw conclusions though.--Nopti 01:52, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Not sure if this is significant, but you can pickpocket the silver shrimp fork from Skelter Butleton. I finished the fight, but in hindsight I should've fled to see if I could get the item again. While not a quest item, it is a mini-quest reward. --rholliday 02:40, 10 January 2007 (CST)

  • Skelter Butleton is a one-time fight. If you ran away, you probably wouldn't find him again until you ascended. --Southwest 10:12, 10 January 2007 (CST)
    • Yeah, that's how I'd figure it would work, since if you lose you can't find him again, but no harm in trying. The more interesting part, to me, is that you can steal a one-time item. --rholliday 11:44, 10 January 2007 (CST)

I got the jump on the Goblin King and the Bonerdagon and no pockpocket buttons was found. I'm 100% sure of the Bonerdagon as I have it up and it clearly says, "You get the jump on him." I did manage to steal items from the mini-boses in the cyrpt. --Crowther 11:39, 10 January 2007 (CST)

I got the exact same thing as Crowther. Stole an item from the miniboss, but got the jump on the Bonerdagon and there was no option to pickpocket. --Tcjellis 00:12, 11 January 2007 (CST)

Though my sample size is small (28 attempts), I was unable to pickpocket any of the Galaktik mini-quest items swindleblossoms, sprigs of fraudwort, and bundles of shysterweed. Has anyone successfully taken these? --Wagr 11:06, 13 January 2007 (CST)

  • I have, IIRC --Improv 17:58, 13 January 2007 (CST)
  • In about 50 total tests on two different characters I was unable to get fraudwort. I could not try the others as I already had three of each. --rholliday 21:10, 14 January 2007 (CST)
    • I believe it's possible to acquire more than three of the quest items if you collect them before "cashing them in", but I'm not 100% sure about that. --TheDotGamer 21:24, 14 January 2007 (CST)
      • Hmm. It's possible that my memory may be faulty. I was pretty sure I got one through pickpocketing, but .. Maybe more testing is warranted. --Improv 21:34, 14 January 2007 (CST)
        • I yoinked a fraudwort. The Doc's quest items would seem to be pickpocketable (though the rates of theft on them are low, I spent 75 turns attempting it) --GameWhino

What about other (mini) quest items, such as the massive bag of catnip, the hang glider, rat whiskers and Spanish flies that drop from normal monsters? Do we know if they can they be pick pocketed? --Nevalkarion 16:40, 31 January 2007 (EST)

I just noticed that the topiary golems are listed as being un-pick-pocketable. My alts aren't in a position to double-check this now, but when I went through the maze a few days ago, I was pickpocketing hedge maps like mad. Did the devs change this? --Iraneseth 15:50, 19 January 2007 (CST)

I guess they did, because I didn't even get the option to on my last ascension (about a week ago.) --Starwed 03:04, 28 January 2007 (CST)

I'm removing the skeletal monkey from the unpickpocketable list... [1] Overkill, possibly. --TechSmurf 18:08, 21 March 2007 (CDT)

Skelter Butleton

As noted earlier in this section I successfully stole the silver shrimp fork from Skelter Butleton. Someone added him to the unthievable list. I can't test again until I ascend, but was this change actually proven somehow? --rholliday 23:56, 28 January 2007 (CST)

Bosses now pickpocketable

  • It seems that after the recent pickpocket updates, bosses can be pickpocketed. Not only Dr. Awkward, but Ed the Undying, as well as the Cyrpt minibosses (from which I've successfully yoinked their drops). Confirmation on the pickpocketability of other bosses? --Prestige 10:17, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
    • I've confirmed that other bosses and the tower monsters are pickpocketable. There may very well be some item hidden on a tower monster, but I was not in a position to check them, as I was going for a low turncount this run. --Prestige 11:58, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Filthworms are also pickpocketable too. Just got a scent gland via Divine cracker --Shoptroll 02:10, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Pickpocket only items

The calavera concertina seems to be a new item, yoinkable? (Seller in trade claims I found a "bug" and got a reward, but...) --Starwed 12:17, 10 January 2007 (CST)

Yikes, my bad on The Knob Goblin BBQ Team. 30 failures yesterday did not mean I wouldn't succeed today. And indeed, I have. --Stepinrazor 09:23, 15 January 2007 (CST)

An item someone in /trade found (k3ck) called "stunt nuts". Image found at "[2]"

http://www6.kingdomofloathing.com/desc_item.php?whichitem=809178685

Not sure exactly how to find exact item number, someone else can go further with this, who knows more about wiki.

stunt nuts This is a bag of roasted, salted nuts. These nuts are the perfect snack for watching interminable meatcar races, because the saltiness makes the taste of cheap beer marginally more palatable. (Cooking ingredient) Type: food Selling Price: 62 Meat.

Stunt nuts is a palindrome also, and the description points towards the red neck guys in that location, probably a pickpocket-only item.--Whiskey Jack 17:44, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Are the pickpocket-only items one-time drops? I've been trying for a couple of days to pick up a second Ratarang, and haven't succeeded, but that isn't definitive proof. MorkaisChosen 11:07, 2 February 2007 (CST)

  • I can now state that they aren't- I stole a second ratarang on the same ascension. MorkaisChosen 05:27, 4 February 2007 (CST)

Not pickpocket-only, just a new drop from Bob Racecar (Palindome)--Whiskey Jack 18:23, 18 January 2007 (CST)

+% item drops influence

Does anyone have any clue if +% item drop items (or familiars) increase the chance of pickpocketing an item? Tchakkazulu 10:26, 31 January 2007 (CST)

If they do, this creates an odd situation with the shaman and the hare, since they might increase item drops, but not necessarily do so, at the end of battle. So, would stealing be easier when using a hare or a shaman without mp? --Snowcat 08:17, 9 February 2007 (CST)

Feast of Boris Monsters

It was just added by someone relatively new that this skill doesn't not work on the Feast of Boris monsters, can someone(s) with a moxie class character(s) confirm this, just to double check? Por favor? --JRSiebz (|§|) 19:25, 7 April 2007 (CDT)

I definitely got jump, and definitely didn't have the pickpocket option. I agree that somebody should try to confirm this though (if they have any more adventures). Froodian 21:23, 7 April 2007 (CDT)
  • If it doesn't work on special holiday monsters, has it ever worked on the Halloween mutants?--Phantomreader42 04:38, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

The Math of Pickpocketing

  • since the mechanic is not known, this formula, although undeniably pretty, is too precise. i'd also be happier if this can be independently verified by at least two eight-brainers before it goes in. integration is hard, you know. --Evilkolbot 06:31, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
    • But the mechanic is known, at least reasonably well. The current understanding for the mechanic (which has been on this page for several days now) is consistent with every piece of data that's been collected on pickpocketing so far. If the mechanic is going to be on the page, why not include the math behind it as well? As for the veracity of the formula, it's been confirmed by at least five mathematicians. See the thread on the HCO forums if you're still unconvinced. I say we put the equation back in. --Buttons 10:38, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
If a monster can drop n different items with associated base drop rates 
p1,  p2, ..., pn, then 
the probability that item #1 will be obtained from a single pickpocket is given by the formula 
YoinkFormula
*The probabilities of pickpocketing the other items can be found by permuting the variables.

I'll agree with Buttons, in that the mysterious integral formula is exactly the same thing as the logic exposed above it. Evilkolbot, it's just one of those cases that "fake" integrals help to produce elegant combinatorial formulas. In this particular case the integral corresponds to the "divide by n, when n items are rolled" thing, exploiting the fact that int(0,1,x^n)=1/(n+1).--Ekeinos 12:26, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

  • five mathematicians can't be wrong. --Evilkolbot 13:10, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
  • As for the actual logic, my data supports it fairly strongly. Furthermore, someone else who worked on picketpocketing came to the same conclusion about how it works, with entirely different data, from different locations, and with no interaction with me. So, the evidence is quite strong; being verified by two different people. --DarthDud 16:44, 13 April 2007 (CDT)
    • But if that formula is correct, it would be impossible to pickpocket a frigid mote, since its base drop rate is 0. Of course, that would explain my failure so far to pickpocket a frigid mote. --Geenius 19:04, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

I think this may be incorrect.. or at least, I think that the true pickpocket rate may be 3/4 of the base rate. This is what I have observed throughout a lot of data. I can bring up pages of Monster Encounter and pickpocket rates.. most of what I've seen is that my pickpocket rates are following very closely to 3/4 of the base drop rate. You can see an excellent example of this at the bottom of my user page, the Castle Data section with 1292 adventures, the pickpocket rates there look to be about 3/4 of the base rate.--MindlessGames 20:25, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

It would be best to test such a theory on a monster with a single drop, instead of multiple drops. --Flargen 20:31, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
  • I don't see that claim in your data, mindlessgames. Two examples: Alphabet giants and goth giants.
Alphabet giants have 2 drop at 40% each. Pickpocket rate should be .4*.6+.4^2/2 = 32% for each item. You found a drop rate of ~31%, as expected.
Goth giants have 3 drops at 30% each. Pickpocket rate should be .3*.7*.7+.3^2*.7/2+.3^3/3 = 19% for each item. You found a drop rate of ~21%, as expected.
I haven't looked at the rest of your results, but those are two with relatively large sample sizes. Where did you find a 3/4 drop rate?-QuantumNightmare 21:47, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
31% and 21% are about 3/4 of 40% and 30% respectively is what I'm guessing. --Flargen 21:51, 25 March 2008 (CDT)
ah, yes, this is what I saw, and it's been doing this all over the place, not just with the giants. Thanks for the insight, I keep thinking that the pickpocket rate is supposed to mirror the true drop rate.--MindlessGames 22:10, 25 March 2008 (CDT)

Could someone please explain how to use the equation above? I can't get the x to work on my calculator.--Larryboy 22:03, 9 July 2008 (CDT)

help

how exactly do you get this skill?--Blood panther 15:59, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

  • be a moxie class; you can't perm it. --Evilkolbot 04:22, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Twiddling thumbs and picking pockets

OK, tonight I tested the point formerly mentioned that you can't pickpocket after getting the 'You twiddle your thumbs' message. Using the Lair of the Ninja Snowmen as the test site, I adventured about 5 or 6 times. Each time I got the jump on the ninja, clicked another link, then hit the 'Pick his pocket' button. All but one time were a failed pickpocket (find nothing, not can't do it at all); the sole exception was when I actually succeeded. I changed the point in the list appropriately. Qaianna 02:34, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

Special yoink rates

I'll be doing a little spading on the rate at which special items are pickpocketed. Thought this was the best place to keep the statistics.

Ratarangs: 27/591
Observed rate: 4.6% +/- 0.9% (1 std dev)
Calculate original rate: 5.4% +/- 1%.
smudged alchemical recipes: 13/280
(Note: AFAICT, I haven't yoinked any square grapes, but they are dropping for me.)
frigid motes: 4/92

--Starwed 10:23, 26 January 2008 (CST)

I observed 42/776 smudged alchemical recipes. (5.41%) and like you, in those same 776 Very Mad Scientists, I got about 20.10% square grapes drop (327 dropped, but +109.67% item), but 0 pickpocketed.--MindlessGames 09:36, 4 April 2008 (CDT)

got some data for frigid motes, 33/659 = 5.08%, with a 95% confidence of +- 1.72% --MindlessGames 11:03, 14 April 2008 (CDT)

Calculated rates

Item Observation Yoink Rate σ "Real" rate? σ
Ratarangs 27/591 4.6% 0.9% 5.3% 1%
Smudged alchemical recipes 55/1056 5.2% 0.7% 6.8% 0.9%
Frigid motes 37/751 4.9% 2.0% 5.7% 0.9%
Cumulative 119/2398 5.0% 0.4% 6.0% 0.54%

Right now I'd guess that it's a flat 5% chance, which is looked at before the regular pickpocket roll is made. --Starwed 13:33, 9 April 2008 (CDT)

Ok, I checked the likelihood of two models: one based on a flat 5% yoink rate, the other on a 6% "real" rate. In the first model, you're going to see data lying this far away from the average rate about 42% of the time, while you're only 9% likely to see data this improbable for the 2nd model. I'm not completely sure I'm doing the exact calculations right, but the data is definitely further (in terms of # of σs) away from the mean in the 2nd model than the 1st.
It's still quite possible that each item has a different "real" drop rate, all calibrated to produce an effective 5% yoink rate. But I'd definitely bet on the flat 5% rate right now. --Starwed 14:05, 9 April 2008 (CDT)

I'm thinking of putting the pickpocket chances for all of the items on, I've found a good formula to do it, and I've gotten an excel document that can easily find the pickpocketing chance if there are only 4 or less items. Anyone think I should do it?--Larryboy 22:45, 5 July 2008 (CDT)

  • I think this would be frowned upon for two reasons. Many monsters have more than four drops, and the information would be incomplete by default. Secondly, the Wiki generally lists base rates for mechanics, and leaves the user to calculate the actual rate given their skills, equipment, and effects. --Bagatelle 10:59, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

I've manage to get the formula to up to 12 items, although at that point it won't fit on the document, but I could get it to maybe 8 or so easily, and very, very few monsters drop more than that. Plus, the pickpocket rate would always be the same and would not be affected by item drop modifiers.--Larryboy 22:14, 7 July 2008 (CDT)

Hobo not pickpocketable(kinda)

In the normal hobo discussation, it is theorized that you can't successfuly steal from a hobo, but you can try.--Brion thenotgiant 20:20, 17 October 2008 (UTC)


Pickpocketable Quest Items

I just got the memory of a cultist's robe via Birdform pickpocketing. It's a quest item, so this seems unusual. --Ephesos 22:39, 25 April 2010 (UTC)

There are other quest items that are pickpocketable. Pretty sure snake head charrrms, I know hedge puzzles, I know the filthworm scent glands. I think that all quest items that can be gotten more than once can be pickpocketed. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 23:29, 25 April 2010 (UTC)


Rave Combo second pickpocket

This will be ... difficult to test, but one Rave combo and the Bling reward, both from the Disco Bandit Nemesis quest, allow multiple pickpocket attempts. Does this have any effect on what monsters can and can't be pickpocketed?--Yunatwilight 20:22, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Only one pickpocketing attempt can be successful. The bling's extra pickpocket works exactly like a regular pickpocket, but cannot be tried unless the first is successful, so it cannot change anything. The bling is just a second chance in case of a failure. The Rave Stealing can also only be successful if there was no successful pickpocket (though it can be tried even if you did not get the jump), but unlike a pickpocket, it cannot steal a pickpocket-only item.
How these have an effect on what monsters can and can't be pickpocketed? I don't see how they can change such a thing. --Bale 23:07, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Rave steal workings

how does rave steal work? each item with equal chance? chance reflecting the pickpocket chance? These kind of questions should have answers on this page, alongside the regular pickpocket mechanics. I'll be doing preliminary results on this over at kolspading --SilentKnight 11:07, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

More spadings!

With all this extra pickpocket bonus, is anyone going to try to get a more accurate picture for the pickpocket-only rates?

Also, Pickpocket bonuses: How do they work? Do they work on the second attempt? Almost certainly. But how about the only other two things that are affected by drop rate, divine crackers and the Slimeling? Slimeling probably isn't, since it doesn't use the full mechanic, and so probably uses different code with Pickpocket as only an inspiration.

Also also, how do the various pickpockets interact with each other? For now, I added in that only one of the pickpockets can be successful. But can you Vpocket and ravepocket in the same combat? --Raijinili 11:15, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Conditional Drops

According to CDMoyer, conditionals and pickpocketability are no longer linked. Probably should update the page. I'll do it myself if I get a chance later. Are there pages that need to be updated other than this one and the Conditional Drops page? --Johnny Treehugger 13:56, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

New Pickpocket theory

This is not going to be too coherent.

DeadNed's theory is that pickpocket-only items are NOT rolled first, but rather have to be subjected to the same shuffle-and-roll that the other items are. This is based off of spading with pickpocket bonuses on the little round pebble, Colon Annihilation Hot Sauce, and unstable quark. See data. The "roll first" is testable with a +140% [[Pickpocket#Bonus Pickpocket Chance|]], which should kill the chance of getting other than a pebble.

Also, he thinks that GoldS's data is wrong possibly outdated. He can't reproduce the 55% drop rate, getting about 38-41% instead, which (under his theory) means 50%. I've radiobugbear'd, so someone listen in the next show. "Were there any changes to the pickpocket code which might invalidate data collected on pickpocket-only items in 2008?"

Here is the Python code I used to simulate.

import random
import copy
SAMPS = 100 #number of hundreds of simulations
#Monte Carlo simulation of pickpocketing
#rates: an array of [name,rate]
def sim(rates):
	random.shuffle(rates)
	for item in rates:
		if random.randint(0,99) < item[1]:
			return item[0]
	return None
#multiple unknown rates
def deALL(rates):
	rates = [[i,item] for i,item in enumerate(rates)]
	counts = len(rates)* [0]	#count array
	for j in range(SAMPS*100):
		retval = sim(copy.copy(rates))
		if retval != None:
			counts[retval]+=1
	print [i*(1.0/SAMPS) for i in counts]

Write a list of base drop rates in a list, like so: deALL([30,30,30,40,40]) --Raijinili 10:09, 29 January 2012 (CET)

Ultra-Rares

  • [2148] Camp Logging Camp

Encounter: hockey elemental Round 0: revelator wins initiative! Round 1: n00beast slurps up some of your opponent's armor. It doesn't look nearly as impressive without pants. (Or pants-analogues.) Round 1: hockey elemental drops 20 attack power. Round 1: hockey elemental drops 20 defense. Round 1: revelator tries to steal an item! Round 2: revelator tries to steal an item! Round 3: revelator attacks! Round 4: hockey elemental takes 264 damage. Round 4: revelator wins the fight! After Battle: You watch n00beast slime around picking up loose debris, and wonder if it's worth checking if there's anything good in there. You acquire an item: hockey stick of furious angry rage You gain 5 Muscleboundness You gain 2 Wizardliness You gain 8 Roguishness Adjusting familiar weight by 5 pounds

(Courtesy of Revelator)

Yep.--Cannonfire40 (talk) 03:45, 2 June 2013 (UTC)

Name Change?

It's showing up as "Pick Pocket" to me, not "Pickpocket". Do we need to move the page and everything that links here?

By "we", I mean "you". --Deus Ex Machina (Talk) 10:28, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Retaliatory Attacks?

A discussion with a couple of clan members prompted me to wonder whether a pickpocket attempt was more likely to result in a successful attack by the pickpocket victim, in the same way that flyered monsters have an autoattack.

Certainly, I noticed a tendency for the mob to get in a successful hit mo matter what my moxie. I will try to collect some hard data on this; meantime, thought I'd post this here as food for thought. --Wertperch (talk) 02:52, 14 February 2014 (UTC)