Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis/archive5

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Archive of Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis, mostly containing discussions between Feb 2013 and 2015. --Philmasterplus (talk) 17:31, 17 November 2020 (UTC)

Daily Dungeon Spellbook Skils

What is the best place for these? Seems like Singer's Faithful Ocelot should go in Tier 2 along with Phat Loot, Drescher's Annoying Noise should go in Tier 3 with Ur-Kel's, and Walberg's Dim Bulb should be in Tier 4 with Overdeveloped/Slimy Shoulders, or perhaps lower, since it is only a 10% boost. Do these tier assignments sound correct? --Klungar (talk) 19:18, 28 February 2013 (UTC)

  • Like already stated up there, I would suggest Dim Bulb in Tier 8, Faithful Ocelot on the bottom of Tier 4 and Annoying Noise somewhere between Tier 3 and Tier 7. (Like I said, right now it's hard for me to rate Drescher's Annoying Noise.) --Yatsufusa (talk) 07:28, 1 March 2013 (UTC)

New Skill Categories

It was easier to demonstrate my idea by just implementing it rather than making a bland demonstration that couldn't show all cases and the overall impact. Also, this talkpage has gotten almost no feedback over the last years.
I would like a better solution for categories that are true for only one class, like (Moxie classes: Flexibility) --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:18, 23 September 2013 (UTC)

  • How does this look? Too colorful?
Moxie classes
Turtle Tamers
Turn Management
--Yatsufusa (talk) 19:02, 5 October 2013 (UTC)

  • That worked out almost as imagined. It would be nice if someone could figure out an easy way to get 3 pixels between the rows of icons. (Other than wedging some white image of 3 pixels height between them...) --Yatsufusa (talk) 14:26, 11 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I think you can use cell-padding or cell-spacing or something. You should look up Help:Tables on wikipedia, it uses mostly (all?) the same parameters. — Cool12309 (talk) 19:49, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

New SC skills

Hey, you talkative people: Should we list Fury skills right under Sauce Synergy in Tier 6 or isn't Fury powerful enough for that – in which case they would most likely go to Tier 7 altogether. --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:36, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

  • I vote for Tier 7. I'm hardly an optimal player, but the gains seem slight for in-run usage, and not useful as non-SC, so don't bother perming until you are running out of things to perm. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 19:31, 4 October 2013 (UTC)

I kind of disagree with Club Foot and Blubber Up being placed in tier 3. Multi-round stunning in general is only needed when you're fighting far above your level and can't kill things in one hit, and a Seal Clubber -- even a low-skilled one -- will be killing everything in one or two hits. If you're still perming tier 3, you're not worried about KFH survivability, after all. Entangling Noodles belongs in this tier because of its (current) utility and value, but after all of the revamps are done, I'd place the class-specific stunners lower. Blubber Up is debatable, but I'd argue that if you're this far into the skill list, you're probably killing things in a stable way that doesn't benefit much from +5 Moxie. --Lilac 18:54, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

  • After reading those again, I have to agree. The problem with them is, that they are similar to two very high ranked skills, which even stack with them. I parked them at the bottom of tier 5 for now, but I wouldn't say they necessarily belong there. Any suggestions where we should move those two? --Yatsufusa (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
    • The silent invasion staggering skills (like Silent Slam) are missing, because we all forgot about them, defiantly taking some of Club Foots ranking. The staggering plus reducing defense looks much better until you remember that pretty much nobody besides SCs uses clubs. The thing is that it still looks like a somewhat essential part of the new Seal Clubber to me. I could be dead wrong, since I haven't played it myself yet (and I won't till Halloween is over). Do you have any experience with Club Foot? --Yatsufusa (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
    • Blubber Up still seems like a decent skill until there's a +5 Muscle skill coming out that takes the same slot – which I would expect as part of one of the next class updates. Currently I'm thinking of Blubber Up in terms of "don't have to tune my Monster Aggravation Device down as often" and "no accordion needed", so it is worth about 1.25 substats and some convenience earlier during a run. --Yatsufusa (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Also the tier's description reads "Skills that improve survival or otherwise aid a run". That's true for a lot of skills and isn't really helpful. That should not be a tier description. I think some tier descriptions could use a rewrite, but I'd prefer someone writing them whose first language is English... --Yatsufusa (talk) 10:54, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

I'm still indecisive about Lunge Smack. Is it awful or awesome? It's a smack, so it can get +5 cold damage from Cold Shoulder. +10 damage for 1 MP is not awesome, but not bad either – it just takes a big skill set until someone considers spending 400 karma on it... The main attraction seems to be that it may get a better hit chance from Eye of the Stoat, making it an extremely cheap Shieldbutt. However, Eye of the Stoat's description only mentions Thrust-Smacks and Lunging Thrust-Smacks. Was someone hoping Lunge Smack would get included at some point or is it actually still being spaded? --Yatsufusa (talk) 19:56, 27 October 2013 (UTC)

Any thoughts on reranking the smacks based on the changes to make it autohit again? Hammer of Smiting is a pretty easy make, and you're going to be auto-hitting everything.-Toffile (talk) 12:40, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

  • While I think that change is highly relevant, it doesn't affect non-SCs. For a guaranteed hit as SC, Lunge Smack and Thrust-Smack would be enough and very MP-efficient. Since those skills are level 1 and level 4 respectively, that doesn't rank them much higher in my mind. --Yatsufusa (talk) 14:03, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Awesome stuff happened. Can anybody confirm that only TS & LTS were upgraded or did the other two Smacks get some +hit- and +damage-goodness as well? --Yatsufusa (talk) 07:25, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Saucy Salve

Saucy Salve seems to be ranked rather high for a skill that basically equals having 10-15 HP more at the cost of 4 MP per combat. Compared with Skin of the Leatherback, Hide of the Walrus, Ghostly Shell or even Reptilian Fortitude this doesn't look particularly interesting. --Yatsufusa (talk) 14:56, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

New DB Skills

Deft Hands seems useful. If the first item used in a combat staggers, that aids flyering and allows one healing item in each combat without taking a hit. Tier 5? Disco Fever is like a moxie Rage of the Reindeer, and should rank at least as high. —Preceding unsigned comment added by FrodoBatman (talkcontribs) on 05:33, 26 October 2013‎

  • Deft Hands: If it lets the first combat item stagger for all the classes it should indeed rank as Tier 4(?), because of spectre scepter and anti-anti-antidote. If it only staggers for Disco Bandits it's still nice with love songs and such, but not as awesome otherwise (Tier 7 with a * for love songs). --Yatsufusa (talk) 13:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
  • Disco Fever: This is a whole lot less useful than Rage of the Reindeer. As soon as you perm Hero of the Half-Shell, that skill only gets used by Moxie-Classes. Tier 6, maybe? ("Skills for special situations") --Yatsufusa (talk) 13:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
    • discussion regarding half-shell moved to new section --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 18:15, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
  • I'd agree with Fever being essentially on par with Rage. TBH I'm surprised at Rage being ranked T3. I'd prioritise the T4-5 skills before it. I think you're right that Fever should be around T6, and that Rage also belongs there. --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 21:33, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Half-Shell, Hustlers and mox vs muscle as a myst class

    • I'd disagree with that. Hero of the Half-Shell requires a shield, and there are various reasons someone might not want to have one equipped - not least of which is Kung Fu Hustler.--Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 15:02, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
      • I currently switch from Kung Fu to my Nemesis weapon when a decent shield comes around during the friars' quest and up to that point +10% moxie doesn't seem that useful to me. But even if you do manage to keep your Kung Fu up until you break the prism, your fist of fury is still a Muscle based attack. Ever since I became a Half-Shell Hero the only time when I didn't use a shield was as moxie class, because their Nemesis weapons are two handed. Could you elaborate on some other situations where you don't want to use shields, while having Half-Shell Hero permed? --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:42, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
      • The decision to drop KFH at the friars seems questionable. Other examples of things you might want the OH slot for would be element forcing spellbooks for saucerors, or any number of modifers available from OH items or dual-wielded weapons (for instance as a myst class I might prefer an offhanded electric crutch rather than a shield with poor bonuses). I'm not sure why you see half shell as being especially valuable for myst classes. Myst class base muscle is unlikely to be much higher than moxie, and as I understand it half-shell only affects damage reduction - attack avoidance is still moxie based.--Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 16:04, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Half-Shell effectively lets Muscle obsolete Moxie. As long as you have a shield equipped and your Muscle is higher as your Moxie, how much damage you evade is calculated from your Muscle. That means you can ignore Moxie for everything besides gear requirements and choose your gear entirely to support Muscle instead (there are also some choice adventures where you choose between Moxie and Muscle substats). --Yatsufusa (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
        • As a Mysticality class I don't use spells on regular monsters, because just killing them with auto hits has worked out way better for me – which could or could not be entirely my fault. In a nutshell I drop KFH at the friars to survive and I can't tell what you're using to survive (and reliably hit) demons on the other side of the portal. How do you do it? And for how long do you keep up KFH? --Yatsufusa (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
        • As a side-note I suspect that it would be fair to say that both of us have our share of iotms, but for the ranking of a skill we should only focus its rating on what is available without those. --Yatsufusa (talk) 16:39, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Just a point of clarification: Moxie is used to A) calculate your chances of dodging a hit, and B) calculate the damage taken if a hit is not dodged. Half-shell only substitutes muscle in the B calculation, not the A one. That's been my observation (though I've not formally tested) and the Monsters page is in agreement with this. What this means is that, all else being equal, a moxie based defense will take less damage overall than a muscle based defense (though with greater muscle you will also have more HP). --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
          • After years I read both the formula Monster Damage and the Monsters page again and I have to agree with you. Sorry for the effort it took you to convince me. (To my former understanding, formula-wise an attack was dodged when its damage would be reduced to 0 by your Moxie. So the only difference with Half-shell and Muscle would have been that the minimum damage was 1 instead of 0... Hence my Moxie disdain.) Sooo... Where should we put Disco Fever now? --Yatsufusa (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
        • Regarding your questions about my usual approaches - I've not had KFH permed for very long at all, but I try to keep it up whenever possible. In terms of easily available equipment in hardcore there are no weapons that come close to the utility of KFH, even before taking the clipart halos into account. If monster defense is too high to for normal attacks then my first recourse is spellslinging (usually tuned cannon). --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 17:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)
          • KFH is awesome... I guess I will perm cannon in the foreseeable future and see how that works out. Thank you. --Yatsufusa (talk) 18:51, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

New AT Skills

Mariachi Memory looks like a tier 2 or tier 3. Five-finger Discount looks like tier 3 or tier 4. --Cjquines (talk) 12:48, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

  • Mariachi Memory looks good for reducing song juggling and looks so awesome, but... other than just slapping on songs like Cletus's Canticle of Celerity when you need (and have) it, I'm currently having a hard time finding a 4th song I would want to spend MP on to keep up a considerable amount of time. Can you come up with some four-song examples and situations you would use them in? Otherwise I would put it between Gnefarious Pickpocketing and Fashionably Late (Tier 6). --Yatsufusa (talk) 17:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)
  • Five-finger Discount makes just the items from NPC stores 5% cheaper, not the skills. If there was a skill for getting 5% more meat from monsters I would agree that it was okay if we put Five-finger Discount directly over or under it, since much meat comes from non-combats. However, since we have +10% meat drop passives, I would most likely fill it in under them. Most likely between Fashionably Late and Stringozzi Serpent (Tier 6). (I promise that that's a coincidence...) --Yatsufusa (talk) 17:13, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

New TT Skills

Taken from Gemelli's forum post: Shieldbutt only autohits for Turtle Tamers now. Kneebutt no longer gives you a bonus to hit. Butts of Steel will apply the very same hit bonus to all the butts now. I'm moving Shieldbutt a few steps down. Kneebutt seemed to have been largely ignored by this page, so it stays where it was ranked before. Like always, protests and "but"s to this and other movements go here. --Yatsufusa (talk) 06:41, 8 November 2013 (UTC)

Pastamancer Revamp

See Gemelli's post here.-12:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Just to keep you informed: I'm working the new class skills down in order of class revamps. Any day now the option for unperming skills will pop up, so if anybody thinks there are (spaded) skills of utmost importance that need listing as soon as possible, please list them in their appropriate section – otherwise it might take a while till it's their turn. Some reasoning why they are important to you would be nice, but I'm not picky. --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:21, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

Sauceror Revamp

See Gemelli's post here.-12:45, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

  • In a bizarre case of reverse power creep, I'm suggesting a promotion to Kasesobesturm. Reason: Saucecicle comes in after Friars, Saucestorm is pretty weak since it's 1/2 Cold, and no more Splashback, so one more reason against it is removed. At least a Tier 7. Inner Sauce is obviously really good, as is maybe Saucemaven, depending on what foods it affects. --JohnAnon (talk) 00:57, 16 November 2013 (UTC)
    • I'll keep that in mind. But I'd like to wait a little till the first first hand reports are in. Jick claimed "Saucestorm and Soul Funk will get you to Hell and back." Should that actually turn out as generally false, I'm sure TPTB would make some tweaks to those spells before all new Saucerors would be forced to rely on a long gone Traveling Trader item. --Yatsufusa (talk) 01:58, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

New Tiers?

Tier 7 is going to get cluttered with a lot of the newer class skills that supplement the class mechanic. Is there a way that it can be broken up into the "Limited in a general sense" and "Limited due to class choice"? It was a dichotomy that was never really seen before the revamps.--Toffile (talk) 16:20, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

  • If I get you right you want to further divide what is currently listed under "Disco Momentum skills" (for example) into "Disco Momentum skills (DB)" and "Skills that aid the Disco Momentum mechanic, but are also usable otherwise" and give "Disco Momentum skills (DB)" their own category with the Fury skills, Soul Saucery and such. Well, it could be done, but that tier would be extremely small, since there are less than 20 skills that are truly exclusively available for only one class and it would look almost the same as before, just with one more header and a planck length of spacing in-between. One could argue that it would have a negative influence on the ranking of these skills to each other in the case that one would like to perm only (for example) the speed/quality of life of his Disco Bandit runs, but since I'm the one ordering them in the first place, I'd say that said order was far from perfect to begin with. If it makes you happy I'm sure nobody would stop you. The Tiers are just an artificial grouping mechanism. Anything from Tier 1 to Tier 7 could be in the same tier anyway since the tier-descriptions have no real meaning – because KoL is a complex game with many angles. The only thing that really counts for those Skills is the positioning of the skills to each other. Tier 8 is stuff you only perm when you have nothing else to do with your karma and Tier 9 is just there so nobody asks "and where is Skill X?" --Yatsufusa (talk) 17:17, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Not entirely what I was getting at. I was talking more about splitting the "Other" section off, which was the old Tier 7 from the Fury/Disco/Momentum/Accordion/Pasta Thrall/Blessing skills that have little to none crossover potential. I think your estimate of 20 is a bit low, since the Blessings and Thralls are significantly weaker if not using the same class.--Toffile (talk) 17:44, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
      • I see that they are weaker, but they are still usable – unlike anything that says Fury anywhere. Disdain of She-Who-Was and Disdain of the War Snapper for example are heavily overpriced, but they would have their uses in special situations – only Disdain of the Storm Tortoise is for fools and masochists. But either way: You have my blessing, since it wouldn't make the page any worse. I just don't think it would make the page any better either. --Yatsufusa (talk) 18:13, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I feel that there should be a Tier (or at least bump up a tier) for later level skills that come in handy if you permed it. For example, Storm Tortoise comes in late, but the MP bonus plus its Boon effect would make MP management better for TTs, or maybe Lasagmbie just for the Nuns quest (This is all theorycrafting, though). I do feel that the lower tiers are pretty bloated, though. --JohnAnon (talk) 17:22, 17 November 2013 (UTC)
    • If that's aimed at the class mechanic-specific skills: The level at which you can get them is already being accounted for – as should be easy to see. If that's not what you were talking about: I don't know what you're talking about. --Yatsufusa (talk) 17:38, 17 November 2013 (UTC)

Splitting the page into "Cross-Class" and "Class-Specific"

(edit: Sorry, this is kind of the same as the previous topic. I should really learn to read one of these days.)

With every class having its own combat suite that (often) doesn't work on other classes, I think there's merit to completely separating the "cross-class" skills (like passives) from those class-specific ones. If a player really likes being an Accordion Thief, they may want to perm Crab Claw Style (or whatever), but you can't really rank that against Mariachi Memory. We could even do small tables for each class denoting which of the class-specific skills are best to perm first to make future lives as that class easier. Thoughts? --Lilac 20:44, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

  • Sounds good, otherwise a lot of skills would need lengthy descriptions saying how useful they are for every class. Would it work then as another tier, perhaps listed before the first or after the last, of skills that are only of use for specific classes? Do you think it would be worthwhile to also list the skill's off-class utility in the main article? --FrodoBatman (talk) 06:03, 19 November 2013 (UTC)
    • Skills that are of more use to certain classes already mention this. Why would one want to add special notices to skills saying that they are good to use for every class? --Yatsufusa (talk) 11:43, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

How about we keep the top few tiers as "cross-class" skills, and then have a little paragraph after a certain tier that says "around here, start considering perming class-specific skills"? --Lilac 16:56, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

  • I'm starting to think maybe I've become routine-blinded. When I look at the page, I already see what you're suggesting in the form of the grouped Fury skills & Disco Momentum skills in Tier 7. When I try to imagine what I think you're suggesting, the only difference seems to be an additional label and splitting of those (and future) class-specific skills into their own Tier. Tier 6b or Class Tier so to speak. If that's what you're actually suggesting, you would suggest the same as Toffile, which I would have no objections against. (like already stated above) --Yatsufusa (talk) 18:13, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

I feel we really need this tier because even if only 1 out of 6+ classes can use them, they're really good to have early because of the level requirement otherwise. I mean, would you seriously put Batter Up in the same "usefulness" tier as something like Disco Face Stab? I'm not even sure if having only 2 tiers is even enough, but that's just me. Now should we call this tier "Class Tier", "Tier 6b", or "Tier 6.5"? --JohnAnon (talk) 16:03, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

I'm unsure if splitting out the skills into cross-class and non-cross class is the best approach for this page. Example: It makes a gigantic difference to Saucerors if you perm Saucegeyser, Curse of Weaksauce and Itchy Curse Finger fairly early, but other classes won't get much utility from these as early perms, and they're all cross-class usable so how do they get ranked? The proposed split wouldn't do much, heck the only cross-class unusable Sauceror skill is Soul Saucery. I don't think there are enough non-cross-class skills to make the distinct rankings valid. I'm starting to think that there are now so many skills in the game that ranking and explaining every single one is too unwieldy, and instead we should just focus on the best ones, stopping after e.g. tier 5. We can maybe provide some more-in depth analysis, with sections discussing how each class can benefit from class-specific perms. --Melon (talk) 21:48, 31 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Are you suggesting we just stick class-specific skills into Tiers 6-8 instead of giving its own tier or cramming every non-useless skills into Tier 7 like we have now? I have no objections to that proposal. --JohnAnon (talk) 07:08, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Just a belated footnote: In theory we wouldn't need to list every single permable skill in the kingdom on this page. But if we don't, three things will most likely happen:
    1) Some wiki-users will think every skill that's not currently listed is useless.
    2) Some wiki-users will think their very favorite (but also very useless) skill not being listed was an oversight and will add it. Leading to removal with an explanation. Leading to adding of the skill at a later point in time by a different user. And so on...
    3) Regular questions and discussions why skill X wasn't listed "at least on the bottom of Tier XY".
    I'm also quite happy about the improvements to the page during my absence. :) --Yatsufusa (talk) 12:58, 10 June 2014 (UTC)

Dreadsylvanian Skills

Here's my proposed positions for the various Dreadsylvanian skills:

Grab a Cold One (30 MP): Tier 5 - Very Useful Skills. Can be cast once daily to summon a scaling booze which is epic quality at level 11+. The MP cost may be a detriment.

Spaghetti Breakfast (30 MP): Tier 6 - Skills for special situations. Less useful than Grab a Cold One as only one can be eaten a day and it has to be eaten before anything else but could still be useful as an epic-quality food above level 11.

Conspiratorial Whispers (25 MP): Tier 7 - Very limited use skills. The MP cost makes this skill not particularly useful unless combat is exceedingly difficult (which it generally isn't).

Shadow Noodles (30 MP): Already included in Tier 6. Might also want to add that it could have niche use with another source of stunning for Tower Killing.

Splashdance (30 MP): Tier 8 - Generally useless or redundant skills. Only necessary in a very dire situation and there are lots of alternative skills which could be used to win the combat in the same situation for less cost.

Sauceshell (30 MP): Tier 8 - Generally useless or redundant skills. Similar to splashdance.

Splattersmash (25 MP): Tier 8 - Generally useless or redundant skills. Deals massive damage against group monsters but as there are scarcely any in a Hardcore run (and none that can't be defeated fairly easy by other means) this is a fairly useless skill.

Turtleini (35 MP): Tier 7 - Very limited use skills. Deals spooky damage over a few rounds, as a Muscle class this can deal more damage than Saucegeyser and Weapon of the Pastalord but its high MP cost means it's only useful against only the strongest enemies that you'll see in a Hardcore run.

Club Earth (50 MP): Tier 8 - Generally useless or redundant skills. This is basically a regular attack with a stagger, its high MP cost makes it of very little use for any usual situations.

Carbohydrate Cudgel (30 MP): Tier 6 - Skills for special situations. The cost of Dry noodles and 30 MP to cast it makes it less useful but as it does give stats on killing the monster it may be of some marginal emergency use if you have excess dry noodles.

Song of the North (100 MP): Tier 7 - Very limited use skills. Can allow passing the least useful tavern non-combat without using an adventure but its high MP cost means it isn't as useful as it could be.

Song of Slowness (100 MP): Tier 6 - Skills for special situations. The initiative may be of use in the crypt for making modern zmobies 5% more common or anywhere where you desperately need more initiative.

Song of Starch (100 MP): Tier 6 - Skills for special situations. Makes surviving A-Boo peak easier.

Song of Sauce (100 MP): Tier 7 - Very limited use skills. Fairly much the same as Song of the North but as you can't cast both at once Song of the North is more useful for the cellar due to the non-combat it skips.

Song of Bravado (100 MP): Tier 6 - Skills for special situations. The +15% attributes may be useful in some situations or for getting more stats out of scaling monsters. --Jamesernator (talk) 11:41, 30 March 2014 (UTC)

New things, because whatever

Since there was no input going on for several days, I've added some skills into the list, and why:

(I've placed class-specific skills in the tier of usefulness it should be placed, but in their own sub-section to differentiate from non-specific ones.)

Utensil Twist: Tier 4 - It's only Tier 4 material because of Smith's Tome, because it sucks otherwise. 10-12 prismatic damage is huge for just 1 MP.

Saucestorm: Tier 6 -> 4 - Cannelloni Cannon was put in Tier 4 for being the most MP-efficient spell at that time, but now Saucestorm blows it out of the water in that regard now.

Inner Sauce: Tier 4 - Who doesn't like free MP?

Batter Up!: Tier 5 - Yes, it's class-specific, but I think the difference between an SC that has this skill from Turn 1 vs. one that doesn't is big enough to warrant a spot there.

Bind Spice Ghost, Curse of Weaksauce: Tier 5 - "

Furious Wallop, Club Foot: Tier 7 -> 6 - They're better than the Tier 7 SC skills.

Ire of the Orca: Tier 6 - Only because you need it for Batter Up.

Spirit Boon: Tier 6 - It's a bit too situational and costly to be any higher, but definitely not useless.

Testimonial Teachings: Tier 6 - Tarrypin's in Tier 6, so I feel it's appropriate to place this here. One gives more experience, but costs MP, while the other gives less, but is free.

+1 Substat Smiles: Tier 6 - Aptitude is Tier 7 because of its huge MP cost. These skills do what you use Aptitude for, but for much less.

Cannelloni Cannon: Tier 4 -> 6 - See Saucestorm.

Bind Vermincelli: Tier 6 - 2nd best Thrall, IMO. Besides, PMs could use the MP.

Thrall Unit Tactics: Tier 6 - PMs don't have much MP restorers, so saving it is just as good.

Itchy Curse Finger: Tier 6 - Pretty quality-of-life for Saucerors and tower killing.

Accordion Appreciation: Tier 6 - Moxie classes can get +7 Moxie right off the bat from R&R, plus Shakespeare's Sister's Accordion gets huge with this. Might still be Tier 7 material, though.

Disco Greed: Tier 6 - On one hand, it's for DBs only and it's gonna cost some MP to use. On the other hand, +item drops.

Flashy Dancer: Tier 6 - Very good quality-of-life skill for DBs if you want to delevel a lot.

Disco Dance 3: Tier 7 -> 6 - As the strongest (in most delevel in a single turn) deleveling skill, I feel this deserves a mention.

Butts of Steel: Tier 7 - Just something that makes TTs stronger.

Turtle Power: Tier 7 - Too double-edged to be any higher than this.

All 3 Blessings: Tier 7 - I think it's mostly up to the player to choose which blessing they want to use, so I placed it here.

Bringing Up the Rear: Tier 7 - The weaker PM spells stay relevant longer.

Stuffer Mortar Shell: Tier 8 -> 7 - It has a delay, but at least it's really efficient now.

Curse of Marinara: Tier 7 - At least it's good for tower killing.

Soul Saucery: Tier 7 - It's not the great very early in the run, but it's still a very good skill.

Northern Explosion: Tier 8 - High MP cost, and you don't need that much elemental damage.

Feel free to bicker at me or move these skills to wherever you think would be better. --JohnAnon (talk) 01:40, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks for your work on this page. My comment is, is this page meant more as a skill ranking or an advised perm order, because some things change if its the latter: Utensil Twist is powerful but can just be purchased as its a level 1 skill making it a very low priority perm. Batter Up is great, but Ire of the Orca should be in the same tier as you can't use it without ire, and without ire the only perm benefit is using it from level 10 instead of 11. Accordion appreciation helps only ATs as other classes can no longer equip the R&R. Lastly, a personal opinion, saucerors really want itchy curse finger when they have weaksauce access, I might bump it up a notch in the same way batter up and utensil twist are really good for their respective classes. Otherwise, nice work!--Melon (talk) 05:40, 13 April 2014 (UTC)
I moved Ire of the Orca up under Batter Up!, because only perming Batter Up! wouldn't do a player much good.
In the case of Accordion Appreciation: I think every Accordion with an enchantment has already read "Bonus for Accordion Thieves only" for years, Toy accordion and antique accordion don't have an enchantment... I guess it was kind of a misunderstanding or mistake during editing, so I'm moving that skill from T6 to the class-specific skills of T7. It is true that this skill is pure awesome, but it's available at level 5, which doesn't make it a priority perm in my book. Or I'll just look at an older verson of the page and forget to check the new version as well... That sounds like fun, too...
Unfortunately I have no first hand experience with the new curses, so I could only make educated guesses on itchy curse finger. While it sounds like an okay skill, saving a single round of combat if the player casts a curse doesn't sound like more than T6 material to me. An additional 3% doesn't sound like much to me, but I could be missing something substantial here... --Yatsufusa (talk) 07:37, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
What you're missing is that curses are unusable at any reasonable amount of ML without itchy curse finger, as you'll simply die trying to use them. Actually I think the weaksauce/itchy combo is underrated on this page, I'd personally put it as a class-specific section in Tier 3 as Saucerors really struggle without it. The combo is also nice for TTs, moxie classes and aftercore too so it's not just for Saucerors, but Saucerors go from struggling to afford to cast spells and having to spend time gathering ingredients for and cooking sauce potions to play a fake moxie class unable to handle bonus ML, to nuking everything in one or two hits while gaining more MP than you spend. It also allows towerkilling as long as you can gather a bunch of other stunning sources. --Melon (talk) 08:08, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • Disco Bandits also really adore Itchy Weaksauce at high ML. In Hardcore at +150 ML I can only survive because the weaksauce keeps reducing ML while my disco dances are staggering the monster and also reducing ML. It is awesome for many situations and I think it deserves full Tier 3 status, not merely a "class-specific" section. --Bale (talk) 08:29, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
  • To be perfectly honest I seriously never thought people would run that much +ML. I'm not sure how you do it exactly, but as long as you can both generate and survive +150 ML with (probably) a few iotms, only skills from Tiers 1 to 3, as well as Curse of Weaksauce and itchy curse finger you have my blessing to move those to T3. --Yatsufusa (talk) 10:07, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

I added some more skills:

Icy Glare: Tier 5 - Same reason Snarl is in Tier 5.

Subtle and Quick to Anger, Master Saucier: Tier 6 - +% Spell Damage is relatively rare compared to flat +Spell Damage and it ignores damage caps, so I think it's pretty useful.

Arched Eyebrows of the Archmage: Tier 6 - Not quite as good as Jackass's (or is it?), but it's still pretty accessible.

Suspicious Gaze: Tier 6 - Basically on the same level as Walburg's, except it takes a facial expression. Could be lower because of that.

Blood Sugar Sauce Magic: Tier 7 - You'd probably use it in the same way Marginally Insane does.

Irrepressible Spunk: Tier 7 - It's those 2 Gnomish skills combined to 1, but it's just as small.

Shield of the Pastalord: Tier 7 - Initiative is more important for PMs, and it has pretty low returns for other classes.

Accordion Appreciation: Tier 6 -> 7 - I forgot pretty much all accordions are for AT only.

Antibiotic Saucesphere: Tier 8 - Same reason as Cringle's.

Cadenza: Tier 8 - Only useful for ATs, and it's an early level skill.

Lunge Smack: Tier 8 - Nothing noteworthy about this skill.

Precision of the Penguin: Tier 7 -> 8 - +5% crit chance is very meh (and unreliable), especially when you have Wallop.

Sauce Monocle, Wizard Squint: Tier 8 - Don't rely on spell crits.

--JohnAnon (talk) 00:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Surprising we got most of the new skills ranked. Anyway, here's what I think of the rest.

Stiff Upper Lip gives the most DR out of other permable skills, but I would guess that boosting Moxie would work better. Spiky Shell is a definite Tier 8.

I think Saucecicle at Tier 8 is rather unfair. I say it definitely has its uses during the Level 12 quest, and it's more important if you don't have access to a Chefstaff, since you won't one-shot monsters with one cast of Saucestorm. Also, there are some cases when Saucecicle + Weaksauce restores more MP than Saucestorm + Weaksauce would. Tier 6 might be pushing it, but I would hardly call it Tier 8.

Deft Hands feel more like Tier 8 since not only is it a Level 1 skill, how often do you use a combat item for damage outside of aftercore? Plus the stagger only works on DBs.

Crab Claw Technique seems like a Tier 7 since it's an early level skill that only really benefits ATs, but I guess it's helpful when you want to run extra ML like, really early.

AT combat skills are a bit hard to rank. I guess Baudy Refrain would be a good source of elemental damage for Moxie classes at later levels (although Saucestorm would probably do the job for when you need elemental damage, i.e. the Protector Spirits). Same goes for Concerto de Muertos. But Cone of Zydeco seems like a Tier 8 since you need an Accordion and the damage is overkill for its MP Cost.

--JohnAnon (talk) 08:26, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

  • I put question marks on every rating to underline that those where manly suggestions, in case they stay unranked for longer. Next time I'll be more specific.
    Apart from the high cap, Saucecicle (cap 150) and Wave of Sauce (cap 100) have the same formula. Wave of Sauce even causes double damage against groups and has a little deleveling on the side and still is T8, so on first glimpse Saucecicle didn't look that important for me, but the Level 12 quest and curses do put things in perspective again. No unfairness intended.
    Stiff Upper Lip sounds like it could have some uses, but I can't think of anything beyond A-Boo clues. Taking the facial expression slot of +10 Moxie or +20% initiative lets it look kind of weak, even on the defense front. Skin of the Leatherback is T6, but Leatherback is also an undemanding passive...
    The 25% from Deft Hands would work great with iotm combat items, like love songs or divine items. Ambidextrous Funkslinging is ranked at the very top of T5, taking mainly into account these examples and the Shadow Class. Of course it's not in the same league, but still I'd see it as a skill of "very limited use" (T7) if not even more as a "skill for special situations" (T6). (Although, granted: I wouldn't rank it very high in the T6 area...)
    Crab Claw Technique could actually be used with that antique accordion you already bought. +50 to hit sounds like a huge help to me, even if it's inconvenient to use an accordion as, say, a DB. Even more on a help when you have Accordion Bash permed as well. My problem here is that I can't foretell what the damage result would be. I can read the formulas, but I never get a real feeling for how the damage will work out. Toy accordion and the antique accordion have the smallest possible damage, but I don't know how important that still is after all the extra elemental, ranged and attribute derived damage a player can dish out after he just got to T7... I don't want to suggest that "this is the future" – but I always considered this could work out, if someone has a certain combination of other skills. Or it's just wishful thinking...
    No objections on the AT combat skills from my side. I think the Moxie classes can make more out of them than with spells, in certain situations, but they are not that impressive for non-ATs. For other classes Concerto de los Muertos would be weak and slow. Cone of Zydeco falls into that weird accordion edge case where everyone but AT & DB will prefer spells or LTS, but 40% Moxie as uncapped damage with extra damage for Group Monsters might have its (T7-)uses, even at 15 MP. Bawdy Refrain is 25% Moxie as uncapped sleaze damage that doesn't requires an accordion. Like the other skills it's only really interesting for non-Moxie classes, but it's not very demanding and always hits, so I'd add it under Disco Nap, maybe.
    All these are merely suggestions. Right now, I'm nowhere near a point where I can go and use karma to perm a bunch of probably low tiered skills to check them out under permed conditions. --Yatsufusa (talk) 09:52, 1 September 2014 (UTC)
    • Okay, I just had a few tries with Bawdy Refrain myself and even as an AT (base accordion damage + 35% Moxie), it was still rather unimpressive on monsters I was able to hit anyway. Maybe it will become more impressive once I meet up with the war hippies or maybe it would have more applications if I ran +150 ML, but as of now, I'd rather just have Saucestorm permed. --Yatsufusa (talk) 07:24, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Traveling Trader skills

It seems very unlikely that anyone will be able to acquire any of the Traveling Trader skills listed on this page, in future. Unless I've totally misunderstood the article on the Trader each of the skills was only ever available for one day. I suggest moving these unobtainable skills outside the main table. --Somesuch (talk) 10:52, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

The skill books are all tradeable. Search the mall. --Melon (talk)
Thank you. --Somesuch (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

Wisdom of the Elder Tortoises

Magical Mojomuscular Melody and Wisdom of the Elder Tortoises are both recommended before casting Inigo's Incantation of Inspiration early on because it costs 100 MP. Why is Wisdom ranked lower than Incantation, at Tier 4? +50% max MP is very useful (and slot-saving), and 100 MP is a massive cost at any pre-NS level. --Somesuch (talk) 16:47, 9 August 2014 (UTC)

  • There are pieces of equipment as well as easily obtainable buffs that help you maintain the 100 MP at reasonable levels* but I think basically you're right: Making Inigo's Hardcore permanent without having at least Wisdom of the Elder Tortoises at your disposal will make castings rather difficult. Mysticality classes have it a little easier, but Wisdom will be a big help with this throughout all classes. Personally I plan to perm Slimy Synapses in addition, because I'm lazy, but Mojomuscular Melody alone might already suffice. Note that it Inigo's note reads "recommended", not "mandatory". Wisdom is a great quality of life skill, but while it sure helps with early castings in general, skills like Disco Fever and Power Ballad of the Arrowsmith just help more. I don't agree with every single ranking, but I'm having a hard time seeing Wisdom even over Singer's Faithful Ocelot...
    * For example I just finished a DB Class Act II run and I'm reasonably sure I was about level 10 when I buffed for over 100 MP, so I could do another libram summon – without even having Mojomuscular Melody. --Yatsufusa (talk) 18:16, 9 August 2014 (UTC)
    • Thanks for your perspective, which is very helpful. However, I still believe that Wisdom should be Tier 3, given its powerful boost, the relative difficulty of finding +MP and the high demand on MP. Singer's Faithful Ocelot doesn't come close for me because with Phat Loot, the Baron's monocle, etc, I rarely find +Item Drops a problem. But it's fine, we can't all have the same priorities. --Somesuch (talk) 12:32, 17 August 2014 (UTC)
      • I don't feel confident in re-ranking Wisdom as Tier 3, just because of Inigo's, but I'll move it over Musk of the Moose & Carlweather's Cantata of Confrontation. Maybe that will inspire some seasoned hardcore ascenders to add a statement here. (Because for some reason changing stuff on the main page seems to inspire more comments than talk...) --Yatsufusa (talk) 15:47, 17 August 2014 (UTC)

Hobo attack skills

Hobo attack skills are currently listed under Tier 9. Yet I noticed more and more attention was paid to tower killing over the past year. Even if a highly skilled player only uses one of these skills only once in two runs, that's not "no possible use during a hardcore run". Tower killing seems to be a thing now, so I'd suggest that we either split Awesome Balls of Fire and Raise Backup Dancer off and move them up to Tier 8 (where Deep Dark Visions is already ranked), or create a Tier tower killing (Muhaha!!) between Tier 8 and Tier 9. Personally, I'm fine with both solution, but the first one seems... saner. --Yatsufusa (talk) 16:35, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

Pickpocket chance skills

Sensitive Fingers and Master Accordion Master Thief are passive skills which each give +10% pickpocket chance. Both are listed in Tier 6 (Skills for special situations), on the grounds that they are only useful to Moxie classes. I suggest that both should be moved to Tier 5 (Very useful skills). Pickpocketing as a Moxie class is standard gameplay, and the criterion of universal application has not been applied consistently elsewhere in the table. --Somesuch (talk) 13:44, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Spell damage skills

A similar argument applies to Subtle and Quick to Anger and Master Saucier, both passive skills which give +10% spell damage, also listed under Tier 6. Casting spells is standard gameplay, not a special situation. --Somesuch (talk) 14:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

Class-specific tiers

This suggestion follows from my previous two comments. Many players have gameplay preferences which influence their choice of classes, and therefore skills to perm. I suggest the creation of separate tiers for skills which are very useful to Muscle, Moxie or Myst classes, but which lack universal application, and then applying the criterion consistently. I believe this would be more useful than the long, undifferentiated lower tiers as they stand. --Somesuch (talk) 14:17, 5 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Now that I look at it, the tier descriptions are a bit of a misnomer now. So Tier 6 right now is more like "better than Tier 7 or below" (Tier 8 is solidly defined as "crap, lowest priority, and/or not worth it"). However, I don't think there needs to be separate tiers for each class. That's why we have categories with certain groupings (like "Damage for Myst classes").
What I do see, however, is that there are too many items in Tiers 6 and 7. While having tiers that has a majority of things in one or two tiers is normal, sometimes when one tier gets too crowded, it's best to split them up (Like how you can split all the Tier Cs into Tiers C+, C, and C-, for example). I think that's a better solution for your problem. See below. --JohnAnon (talk) 03:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

Increase the number of tiers from 9 to 10

It's come to my attention that Tiers 6 and 7 are too crowded now, especially after the class revamps. Therefore, I'm suggesting, we expand Tiers 6 and 7 into Tiers 6, 7, and 8, and move Tiers 8 and 9 down one rank. Also, the descriptions for tier placing seems to have lost some meaning as we've been adding new skills, so having an extra tier would help justify the skill placements a bit better. Here's what I suggest:
Tier 6: Useful skills that are not as essential
Tier 7: Non-essential skills that are handy for niche cases
Tier 8: Skills with limited use
Or somewhere along those lines, but hopefully people can get the idea better. --JohnAnon (talk) 03:45, 6 November 2014 (UTC)

  • Damn it, there are already so many things that I have to remember and take care of that I'll forget what they were if I don't write myself notes! Unfortunately those notes exists and would be sufficient to disguise myself as an office-mummy with...
    Your suggestion is good and from the lack of complains I'd judge others think so as well. The titles may need work, but that's a problem we already have for years, so I'll take these. --Yatsufusa (talk) 23:50, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

The usefulness of familiar weight now

So with the removal of the Naughty Sorceress familiars, I'm wondering of the usefulness of familiar weight is as good. Arguably, the #1 reason to get familiar weight skills is to reach the 20 pound requirement for the NS familiars, but familiar weight obviously is used for other things by boosting stats indirectly.

Long explanation short, is Amphibian Sympathy skill a Tier 1 skill? I suppose a +13-9% Item Drop, +1 substat, or an extra resist or two with the Parrot seems like nice bonuses, but I'm not sure if it belongs in the "essential" category now. By extension, other familiar weight skills like Leash should also be looked at. --JohnAnon (talk) 09:58, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

  • I never viewed the +familiar weight skills as something primarily aimed at the tower familiars. While those skills have been very convenient to have for that particular use in the past, the familiar slot is still the most powerful equipment slot in the game. I think those skills are fine where they are, even though I personally use the hell out of Empathy and would rank it higher. --Yatsufusa (talk) 16:10, 18 November 2014 (UTC)
    • I agree entirely with Yatsufusa, and will refrain from repeating the same argument. --Somesuch (talk) 23:02, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

Naughty Sorceress' Tower Revamp

In the light of the recent revamp, I guess the following Dreadsylvanian Class-Crossed Skills had their relevance increased:

  • Song of Slowness: +50% Combat Initiative for the Fastest Adventurer contest, which will happen every single ascension
  • Song of Bravado: +15% to all Attributes (which is a very minor factor) for the Strongest/Smartest/Smoothest Adventurer contest, one of which will happen every ascension
  • Splattersmash: An uncapped group damage spell which might be a alternative to Saucegeyser when fighting the wall of bones. The strategy part says it is, but 20,k damage seem like an awful stunt to pull of. Unless the wall counts as a really huge number of monsters, electric boning knife might be the saner alternative for most players.
  • Song of Sauce: +50 hot dmg, +50 dmg to hot spells (& +100% spell dmg, but whatever) for the occasional Hottest Adventurer contest
  • Song of the North: +50 Cold Damage (& +100% Weapon Damage) for the occasional Coldest Adventurer contest

I'm not sure how big the numbers need to be for each adventure to be shaven off per run, but right now at least the Song of Slowness seems like a reasonable investment. The other skills looks more like the stuff for the speedrunner that already has permed everything else. Since the MP costs are rather high, I'm guessing it's various places of Tier 8 for all of these. --Yatsufusa (talk) 22:45, 7 February 2015 (UTC)

It's worth noting that passive damage skills are now more useful, since they help you beat the wall of skin. Shell Up, Sauceshell and the Silent combat skills also are helpful, since they work where most stuns/staggers will not. At best those skills in combination will at most shave 2 turns off your run not getting a beehive, and getting the damage together to beat the wall isn't very hard. Even so, most of them are languishing in the useless tier, which is slightly unfair. --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 03:41, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

  • Tier 8 for the Dreadsylvania songs seem reasonable, since they contribute a lot of points towards the rankings and aren't very easy to max out, not to mention they're always available on Standard. Not sure about Song of Bravado, though. And until someone spades it, don't know how good Splattersmash is on the wall of bones.
While we're on the topic of Dreadsylvania skills, I think these belong in Tier 9 easily:

--JohnAnon (talk) 03:42, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

A few thoughts on booze in Hardcore

Let me start out with a few assumptions:

  1. Before a player starts out his Hardcore career in KoL, he will in all likelihood have zero skills hardcore permed. There might be players that do about 50 extra softcore runs to save up karma and hc perm skills, before their first hc run, but even if there are, they will perm skills in order of usefulness.
  2. Let me furthermore, without any hard data on the fact, assume that the majority of players doesn't own hardcore usable content from Mr. Store. I'm basing this assumption on the fact that Jick & Co had the money talk last year.

Now for a few facts:

  1. The first few ascensions a player does will stretch over several days, because he will probably waste some turns (compared to optimal behavior) and because he generates less adventures per day and his inexperience with hardcore. So conserving and generating more adventures will speed up runs more than, say, Tao of the Terrapin or Hero of the Half-Shell.
  2. Advanced and Superhuman Cocktailcrafting generate a lot of adventures. Combined with Liver of Steel these skills will have quite an impact on the number of additional adventures a player can generate, especially during his early levels – which will most likely stretch for several days.
  3. Despite this, there's better drinks available later on in the ascension. This "later on" can stretch over several days for a player that's new to hardcore ascending.
  4. Superhuman Cocktailcrafting increases the number of drinks a player could generate per day, and with that the number of adventures.
  5. Being a Moxie class (chances are 1 in 3) will make Superhuman Cocktailcrafting even more powerful by giving access to drinks of awesome quality. I'm not claiming exactly every third run a player does will be as a Moxie class, I'm just stating that the probability of playing as one isn't bad.

All these reasons are leading me to believe that Advanced Cocktailcrafting and Superhuman Cocktailcrafting are pretty nifty skills that I would recommend to new players immediately. Together with Pastamastery, Advanced Saucecrafting, Ode to Booze and Amphibian Sympathy. While Leash of Linguini for example is a great skill, I wouldn't expect that it would aid a player with one or two completed hardcore ascensions better than one of the Cocktailcrafting skills – unless that player has a rather unusual way to play. I would also recommend getting Transcendent Olfaction to pretty much any player (and in fact, I do), but since that one doesn't require an investment of karma, I wouldn't prioritize it against any of the aforementioned skills. Like other skills from the Mr. Tier, it is acquired through alternate means and doesn't require a player to do an ascension to make it permanent.
Now I'd like to hear other people's arguments and counter arguments, especially from Cairnarvon, who seems so keen to rerank these skills. --Yatsufusa (talk) 20:55, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

  • AC and SHC can both be nice for players with few IOTMS and high daycounts, but I'm not at all sure they deserve Tier 1 status. They have suffered in comparison to other consumables in the fancy ingredient and class revamps - they now take crafting turns where non-fancy cocktails do not, and haven't had a boost like the pastas got with saucemaven. If you have access to base booze and fruits then AC drinks are only 0.25 adv/drunk better than basic cocktails (so with liver of steel +4.75 adventures a day - ignoring the better booze encountered at later levels). SHC has quite a bit more benefit, but is only relevant to moxie classes. I think it would be good to move both skills to T2 if not lower, since they're nowhere near as valuable as other T1 skills for new players, and become even less relevant as the player accrues more skills/IOTMs. --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 12:54, 16 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I'm afraid I don't see what you mean, numbers-wise. I did a little excel sheet to get a better picture and pink pony has 4.00 adv/drunk when I account for the 1 Adv spend crafting. Strawberry wine only has 2.67 adv/drunk. So that would be a 1.33 adv/drunk difference. Painful penne pasta (3.50) compared with strawberry pie's (2.50) seems less impressive.
      But I don't want to focus on average numbers, because what interests us at the end of the day are the actual adventures generated per day. As a non-Moxie class with AC, SHC and Ode, 5 pink pony-esque drinks will generate 100 adventures on average, leaving 3 drunkenness open. As a non-Myst class with Pastamastery, Advanced Saucecrafting, 1 milk (no Impetuous Sauciness) and Saucemaven, fettucini Inconnu-esque food will generate 87 adventures on average, leaving 3 fullness open. Even when not taking Ode and milk into account pink pony gets you 80 Adv, while fettucini Inconnu only generates 77 Adv.
      Now it is entirely possible that I'm making some kind of mindboggling mistake here. Maybe my logic is faulty, maybe I did overlook something, maybe I'm just comparing the wrong stuff, or maybe my math is wrong. But if they are not, two Cocktail skills still trump 3 food skills, thanks to liver of steel and the fact that players can overdrink. (Here's a link to my spreadsheet, for those who are interested.) --Yatsufusa (talk) 01:23, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
    • I think that the main difference is that while there are a huge amount of in-run sources of awesome+ booze, very few things can combat hell ramen + maven + milk. THere's 5 drunkenness from the Fist Turkey, 3-6 from the speakeasy, 1 from the Cold One, and a few other sources that I can never seem to remember that always manage to put me to 14 before needing to make a mixed booze, and even then it's for nightcapping. Obviously, skills like AC/SHC are useful for people without very many skills or IOTMs, but Skill Analysis is supposed to be for the absolute best, isn't it? Cocktail skills may not be tier 9, but they're certainly not that valuable in high-end play.--The ErosionSeeker (talk) 02:05, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
      • As long as I can remember back, the Hardcore Skill Analysis was always aimed at ambitious players but never assumed players to have any (or all) iotms. We had a link to a hardcore oriented forum where these matters are probably catered to as well as the Hardcore IOTM Analysis that nobody really seems to care about. On top of that I think that would be a somewhat dangerous road to travel, because it implies that the wiki only cared about players that spend 120$ per year on it. While I'm not opposed to the idea of discussing iotm versus non-iotm content, I think KoL is a fun game even for players that don't donate and I'm pretty sure non-donators still want to read good advice on how to optimize their ascensions. (If we're suddenly aiming only at donators, I want to get paid!)
        Because of that, I would only consider non-iotm arguments. The Cold One seems to be the only definitive non-iotm booze source that came up so far and it only fills 1 drunkenness per day. --Yatsufusa (talk) 02:49, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
    • Whoops, you're quite right, I derped the basic cocktail adv/drunk. However, I'd still say that your premises are flawed and your math is off (your sheet is calculating average adventures incorrectly: min+max/2 != (min+max)/2 ). First up, you seem to be relying on the fact that liver has greater capacity, but ignoring that capacity can also be used on non-summoned consumables. On a similar note, you get the same benefit from Ode/Milk regardless of what you fill your organ with - with a minor exception for nightcap size - so they are all but irrelevant to the discussion. Following your example nonetheless:
As a point of comparison, without consumable skills it is likely you will have to resort to decent food/drink that provides 2.0 adv/size (tavern beer/schnapps/fruit pies etc.)
5 AC drinks and a size 3 decent filler gives (5*(12-1))+(3*2) = 60 adventures (or 83 with ode).
A full liver of decent booze + size 3 nightcap (e.g. Tavern swill) gives (22*2) = 44 adventures (or 66 with ode) - so AC Drinks give a +16 (+17 with ode) adventure improvement.
2 Reagent Pasta and a size 3 decent filler gives (2*(24.5-2))+(3*2) = 51 adventures (61 with 10 milk / 66 with 15 milk)
A full stomach of decent food gives (15*2) = 30 adventures (40 with 10 milk / 45 with 15 milk) - so reagent pasta gives a +21 adventure improvement (or +31 with non-myst saucemaven)
  • SO the two food skills produce significantly more adventures than the two cocktail skills, and adding saucemaven near doubles the gap. I maintain that even for newer players, AC+SHC don't deserve their current T1 status. --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 02:45, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
      • You're right about my math (I stumbled over a combination of changing formulas half way and an overabundance of parentheses used). I'm taking the flawed sheet down and will look into this when I feel fresher.
        So we're currently discussing +16/+17 Adventures from the booze skills versus +21/+31 Adventures from the food skills. So where would you rank AC/SHC? +16 Adventures per day as non-Moxie class still sound pretty good. It's under the +22/23 Adventures from Ode to Booze and over +10 Adventures from non-Myst class Saucemaven.
        Would you be okay with ranking it between Mad Looting Skillz and Moxious Madrigal? If I remember right, even finding enough food/booze was quite a problem when I started playing, so having a reliable source of making the best out of what you find seems still pretty valuable. For similar reasons, I would still rank Pastamastery and Saucecrafting over Ode to Booze, so players don't have to eat their tomatoes raw anymore. --Yatsufusa (talk) 03:22, 17 February 2015 (UTC)
  • Yeah, T2 definitely sounds reasonable. After taking a good look at trivially available booze in hardcore AC drinks aren't in quite as bad a place as I initially thought. --Darkcodelagsniper (talk) 03:30, 17 February 2015 (UTC)

Order in Mr. Tier

Sorry this got neglected... Right now I'm not sure how Mr. Tier is ordered – or if said order still makes sense. By the looks of it I'd say it was ordered like this:

  1. Mr. Store items, ordered by date
  2. other automatically Hardcore permed stuff
  3. useless stuff

Under other circumstances I'd say "Let the Hardcore IOTM Analysis deal with this.", but aside from... several other factors, that page wouldn't care about Transcendent Olfaction. Now before we start reordering, what would you say should we order by? I'd propose ordering by Hardcore usefulness independent of source or age. --Yatsufusa (talk) 00:35, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

Charters & Deck & Numberology

  • Olfactory Burnout & Asbestos Heart (surv): Probably T7 if Sanity Maintenance is. They save a few turns in the Haunted Kitchen, that's about it.
  • Pyromania (dmg): T7-8. Grease Up and Intimidating Mien are generally better; and Song of Sauce is all you need for the desk. Still not bad.
  • Garbage Nova (dmg): T5-6. The Wall-of-Bones killer.
  • Firegate (dmg): Usage overlaps with Splattersmash and Garbage Nova, mostly redundant if you have one of these.

Only for Deck of Every Card owners:

  • Ancestral Recall (turn): T7. It's turngen!
  • Giant Growth (special): T7. With a free runaway, it's great for the registration deck.
  • Dark Ritual: (flex): T8-9. Being able to pull mana out of your ass is nice, but with proper management and a chateau you can save your Deck uses for something else.
  • Lightning Bolt (dmg): T8-9. Very situational. Giant Growth has similar uses but is much more flexible.
  • Healing Salve (healing): T9. The shadow doesn't care for skills, and there's little point to healing that requires preparation costs a Deck use.
  • Calculate the Universe (flex/special): T6-7? Some of the already-known effects (turngen, frat fight, gearhead fight, sobriety) are pretty good. I'd rank it higher than Ancestral Recall because the turngen doesn't compete with anything. br>

--Octagon8 (talk) 11:54, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Perfect Freeze

tier 1? Discordance (talk) 17:09, 7 November 2015 (UTC)