Talk:Hardcore Skill Analysis/archive3

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Transcendent Olfaction

Shouldn't Transcendent Olfaction be higher than useless? I claim it's at least level 6. --Patmo98 02:59, 29 January 2008 (CST)

  • Anyone who rates it below...let's say level 3, doesn't actually know how powerful it is. I mean, god damn. --Ricket 05:30, 29 January 2008 (CST)
    • I would think it would belong on Tier 1.5, along with the other Incredibly Useful skills which take a lot of time or meat to acquire, and aren't gained in the standard manner. --Aardvark (Talk | Contribs) 05:47, 29 January 2008 (CST)
    • Agreed. --Azrane 07:53, 29 January 2008 (CST)
    • I agree with this as well, I have Transcendent Olfaction on a multi, and my main has been in Hardcore for quite some time, being able to Trail things would be ridiculously useful. This should be at least in Tier 4, for its ability to speed up portions of a run, if not in Tier 1.5. Go take a look at Talk:On the Trail if you want to see how ridiculous it is.--MindlessGames 18:05, 25 February 2008 (CST)
  • It sounds like there's a quorum on moving this skill to Tier 1.5, which I think is right. I can only assume that the delay in making the change is because once you start moving skills around, this opens the door to examine all other skills that need to be re-rated in light of NS13. But if you want this page to be useful going forward, I think that's something that needs to be done.--Gemelli 12:08, 10 March 2008 (CDT)

Clean up

Ok, I've been trying to clean up this list, but it still needs a lot of work. The Thrust-Smack, Lunging Thrust-Smack and Eye of the Stoat skills are now significantly less powerful; only Seal Clubbers get the full benefit of these skills. Here's my proposed set-up for the newly ordered NS13 tier guide. I would like as much input as possible about tier classifications and where to put skills, as I'm only a casual Hardcore player and don't what the fast ascenders use.

-Tier 1: Essential skills that immediately add or save many turns over a run.

Advanced Cocktailcrafting; Advanced Saucecrafting; Amphibian Sympathy; Pastamastery

-Tier 1.5: Incredibly useful skills that take tremendous time and effort to acquire.

Summon Candy Hearts; Summon Snowcone; Transcendent Olfaction

-Tier 2: Skills that provide benefits throughout an ascension, whether by speeding up quests or improving combat prowess.

Astral Shell; Entangling Noodles; Fat Leon's Phat Loot Lyric; Leash of Linguini; Mad Looting Skillz; Springy Fusilli; The Moxious Madrigal

-Tier 3: Skills that improve run speed like Tier 2, but are lower priority.

Aloysius' Antiphon of Aptitude; Impetuous Sauciness; Superhuman Cocktailcrafting; The Magical Mojomuscular Melody; The Ode to Booze; Wisdom of the Elder Tortoises

-Tier 4: Skills that make some game portions easier or faster

Cannelloni Cocoon; Empathy of the Newt; Overdeveloped Sense of Self Preservation; Pulverize; Saucy Salve; Smooth Movement; Tenacity of the Snapper; The Polka of Plenty; The Way of Sauce; Tongue of the Walrus

-Tier 5: Very useful skills that depend on or support higher-priority skills

Ambidextrous Funkslinging; Armorcraftiness; Double-Fisted Skull Smashing; Eye of the Stoat; Headbutt; Hero of the Half-Shell; Jackasses' Symphony of Destruction; Kneebutt; Lunging Thrust-Smack; Nimble Fingers; Powers of Observatiogn; Rage of the Reindeer; Shieldbutt; Snarl of the Timberwolf Summon Party Favor; Tao of the Terrapin; The Sonata of Sneakiness; Thrust-Smack; Torso Awaregness; Ur-Kel's Aria of Annoyance

-Tier 6: Situational skills or helpful ones with low priority.

Claws of the Otter; Claws of the Walrus; Disco Face Stab; Disco Power Nap; Elemental Saucesphere; Expert Panhandling; Ghostly Shell; Gnefarious Pickpocketing; Immaculate Seasoning; Jabañero Saucesphere; Lasagna Bandages; Reptilian Fortitude; Skin of the Leatherback; Scarysauce; Spectral Snapper; Spirit of Ravioli; Spirit of Rigatoni; Stevedave's Shanty of Superiority; Super-Advanced Meatsmithing; Tango of Terror; The Power Ballad of the Arrowsmith; Transcendental Noodlecraft

-Tier 7: Skills with very limited use or extremely low priority.

Brawnee's Anthem of Absorption; Carlweather's Cantata of Confrontation; Chronic Indigestion; CLEESH; Cold-Blooded Fearlessness; Cosmic Ugnderstanding; Crossbow Fever; Diminished Gag Reflex; Dirge of Dreadfulness; Fearful Fettucini; Flavour of Magic; Gnomish Hardigness; Heart of Polyester; Hide of the Otter; Hide of the Walrus; Jalapeño Saucesphere; Musk of the Moose; Northern Exposure; Summon Hilarious Objects; The Psalm of Pointiness; Tolerance of the Kitchen

-Tier 8: Generally useless or redundant skills.

Cletus's Canticle of Celerity; Cone of Whatever; Disco Aerobics; Disco Dance of Doom; Disco Dance II: Electric Boogaloo; Disco Eye-Poke; Disco Nap; eXtreme Ray of Something; Intrinsic Spiciness; Manicotti Meditation; Minor Ray of Something; Moxie of the Mariachi; Patience of the Tortoise; Really Expensive Jewelrycrafting; Sauce Contemplation; Saucegeyser; Saucestorm; Seal Clubbing Frenzy; Stream of Sauce; The Smile of Mr. A.; Tongue of the Otter; Wave of Sauce; Weapon of the Pastalord

-Razorpack 10:08, 11 March 2008 (CDT)

After finally making it onto the Bad Moon leaderboard and comparing that with how I play normally in NS-13 land, I agree with your and Ricket's characterization that Entangling Noodles is one of the most essential skills now. Even with 90 permed skills to increase outgoing and reduce incoming damage, I still find myself relying heavily on it, and I really, really miss it when playing in Bad Moon. I'm moving it to Tier 2 on the main page right now. That basically lines up everything down to tier III with your list, except for you having "Wisdom..." at 3 which looks like a mistake--that's fairly dumped into V right now.

The only thing that bugs me a little about the top tiers now is having "The Magical Mojomuscular Melody" at 3. That was really a big help in the NS11 days for pushing through the first day really fast, slurping snowcones fast without brain-freeze, etc.--I think I was the one who pushed it that high in the first place. But in NS13, I find the level limits drive my play during the first day so much the strategies I needed that for don't work as well anymore. Where there was a base 80 turns, there was plenty of time to do some sewer and big rock work before doing any adventuring. Now, I find I need all those turns just to get to where I can consume the food and drink I want on day one. There's just enough turns available to reach level 3 and finish that quest and get some decent booze (which you probably can't improve all of because then you can't drink it), consuming that gives you just enough turns to hit level 4 (enabling spicy noodles), and you can't rush to eat reagent dishes because they're not useful until you're at level 6 anyway.

I'm tempted to drop the position of Mojomuscular down and swap it with the best of the skills currently in IV. Not sure whether that would be Smooth Movement (useful in even more places than it used to be) or Empathy of the Newt (formerly a higher ranked skill, dramatically more expensive now).

--Greg1104 10:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

  • Actually, Mojo is incredibly helpful. It's quite nice for acquiring those day 1 roc feathers with the help of tonic water, and other buffs as well. Without those roc feathers and perhaps aria/antiphon, you won't have a chance of making day 1 liver. --Fuzzyevil2 01:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Torso Awareness

Sorry if this has been hashed out, but I don't understand why Torso Awareness isn't one of the higher rated skills. It's like having an extra Accessory slot. Several outfits need shirts and though you're not likely to use them in Hardcore you might as well acquire them for when you play a Normal run. Many of the shirts are very useful and all add to your defensive power. If nothing else, the addiional item drops can be sold or smashed. --Stickyhands 16:32, 16 June 2008 (CDT)

  • bleeding-edge ascenders apparently have issues where shirt drop non-combats would take away a valuable adventure's worth of delicious stats. no, i don't get it either. --Evilkolbot 16:48, 16 June 2008 (CDT)
    • I am pretty sure all the shirts that could slow down your run were removed or turned into choice adventures with a no turn use option.Drizzl 11:54, 29 June 2008 (CDT)
  • Serious hardcore players don't ever drop into a normal run until they've acquired every skill in the game, so that's not really a useful argument to make. The main two useful shirts for hardcore runs are the goth kid t-shirt (if you're stronger then the monsters you're fighting) and the bronze breastplate (if you're weaker), and neither of those are so compelling that the skill is worth perming until you've got quite a few skills already. --Greg1104 10:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)
  • Should Torso be moved up based on the Sugar Shirt? --Campboy 18:40, 26 September 2009 (UTC)
    • The description for Tier 6 (where torso is at the moment), is "very useful skills that depend on or support higher-priority skills." This is a reasonable place to put Torso, I think. Since it depends on (or supports), Summon Sugar Sheets. Torso and Armorcraftiness also go well together, an often-used strategy is to craft a shirt once the level 8 quest is complete, using some of the trapper's furs. I do not think Torso needs to be moved. Without Summon Sugar or Armorcraftiness, Torso is pretty much useless. --MindlessGames 19:32, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

Rainbow Gravitation

The new Rainbow Gravitation skill needs to be added. --Tingly 14:13, 18 July 2008 (CDT)

  • It does need to be added but it doesn't seem like it would have a lot of use, since getting one of every element would be quite difficult. I'd say Tier 6 or 7. The main I see for it are
    • Muscle classes with access to the Malus who can make more wads.
    • After/During the Hippie/Frat war when you can get lots of elemental wads.
  • However one this does combine well the The Way of Sauce, since you can then use excess twinkly wads to change other elements around to best use them. --Quickdart 21:46, 02 August 2008 (EST)
  • There are 5 Tier 8 skills that I'd want before Rainbow. The only benefit to me would be to get extra adventures with prismatic wads, but I rarely have a run where I need these extra turns, seeing that I'd only be able to use it 2 days max per run. The rest of the benefits I don't need or I get from reagent potions. It should be more useful after NS15, maybe 45 extra turns/run if wads work out. It feels like a weak Level 7 or strong Level 8 to me. --Tingly 14:00, 12 August 2008 (CDT)

Liver/Stomach/Spleen of Steel

Should they be added to the list? If so, what tier would it go to?--JohnAnon 18:04, 22 August 2008 (CDT)

They'd probably be added if you could perm them.--Odeem 18:34, 23 August 2008 (CDT)

Hodgman's Journals

As a new player to KoL, I found this guide EXTREMELY useful, props to everyone! But, one serious question, has anyone considered adding the journals to the list? Think about it, they're relatively cheap in the mall (65k for #4), so even if they are terrible in comparison to others, they should still be worth comparing, considering they are permable and all that. Of course the AT songs can't be used till 15 so no point mentioning them. Levio: Oct 31, 2008.

Agreed. They basically correspond with the Gnomad skills, so on that basis I'd put Journal 1 (+5% items) in Tier 5, Journal 2 (+10% meat) in Tier 6, and Journals 3 and 4 (+10% HP and MP, respectively) in Tier 7. --Ahamster 18:26, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The Slime-soaked passives should get the same treatment. They're more like perks that won't make a ton of difference in the ease of a run --Shoptroll 20:55, 6 August 2009 (UTC)