Talk:Dressing For Success/archive

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Miscellaneous

One of my clannies has created tools for calculating mox, mus, mys, ML and drops. They can be accessed here - http://notdeadyet.bongley.net/resources/calcs.php Wonder if they might be useful on the main page here and the relevant Wiki pages? Panama Joe

I rewrote this any some of the coresponding articles will someone with better knowledge of the other pages please rewrite them. --Chunky_boo 22:27, 14 October 2007 (CDT)


I have a request: all of the outfits assume that one has access to everything in one's inventory. Wouldn't it be handy to have a Hardcore classification, though, instead of just organizing it by devotion to the game/wealth? The hardcore player may have all the items and skills a Deity may have, but access to only the skills.--Joel 11:25, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

  • I'm not sure how useful that would be. As someone who was primarily HC pre-NS-13, I wouldn't have bothered trying to maximise anything. It would have taken too many turns to farm for all the parts. --Bagatelle 11:43, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
    • It could be useful for someone trying to get the million meat trophy... but I guess you're right. You really just have to take things as they come in HC.--Joel 11:59, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
  • I've also been thinking item classing in regard to maximizing effects needs to have a listing aligned to ascension runs. For example, one listing for what is practical for a first run player, another for hardcore, and so forth. I also think level specific entries would have more practical game applications than simply the overall maximums for buffs and stat bonuses. A point to consider since many items though available prior to an ascension are obtainable so late in a run their usefulness is often limited. Currently these pages only have a bearing on at least second run and after casual ascensions.--Xclockwatcher 16:54, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

I think it would be nice to add outfits for elemental resistance.--Wierd Ali 15:51, 1 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm thinking that a reorganization of these tables may be handy. It seems like meat based bands are somewhat secondary to ascension based bands. If caps were set in terms of how things were attained (HC attainable, path only items, class only items, rewards, holiday items, Mr. store items, etc.) in addition to mall cost, it might make it more relavent to the barriers people run in to. --Dantose 09:11, 7 May 2006 (CDT)

This series of articles is fantastic. Awesome work, Gymnosophist. --Snickles 19:51, 11 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • Thanks!  :) As always, if anyone has any comments of suggestions, please speak up. One thing in particular I had trouble with was the player types names (KOL Deity, Villa, Hardcore, Normal, Slacker). I tried to make them understandable and KOLish, but if anyone has any better ideas... Now I just have to get the explanations finished! --Gymnosophist 10:16, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)
    • Exchange Slacker for Apathetic Lizardman maybe?--Gorgolok 11:58, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

Oyster egg effects seem to be valued differently on different lists. The meat drop ones apply to Normal, whereas Vocabulary only applies to hardcore or higher. Personally, I'd make eggs hardcore, simply because they're not an everyday drop.--Gorgolok 15:34, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • Yes, that's because some are over the 10,000 meat cut-off and some are under. The details of the drop are unimportant, as the only significant factor is the mall cost. Something that isn't explicitely stated (but needs to be) is that the players are assumed to be free of any ronin or hardcore constraints. If this weren't the case, buffs, reagent potions, etc. would only be available through the players own efforts, which is not what what's being illustrated here.--Gymnosophist 18:53, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

The whole player classification thing seems overly complicated and contradictory to me. If you don't make your special weapon you're an apathetic lizardman, but if your clan gives buffs you're also a deity? If you set the mind control device to 2 you're suddenly better than hardcore? Being hopped up on goofballs is a status symbol? It just seems like unneccessary stratification to me. I think "here are some things to do to be a good player" would be more helpful that "u are teh suck if you only have 300 damage absorbtion"

  • It's an interesting exercise and wasn't intended to be much more than that. The stratification is just arbitrary; to distinguish between various levels of player, lines had to be drawn somewhere. It's not intended to insult your abilities if you fall into one category or the other. Also, the mind control entry refers to equipment gained through manipulation of the mind control device, not setting the device to any particular setting. The reason for the distinction being the additional effort required to collect the mind control equipment, such as multiple ascensions. --Snickles 14:55, 28 Sep 2005 (MDT)

Clan buff usage as a "Villa"-only privilege? Considering the relative ease of starting your own clan and calling buffs from that... I'm... not too sure about being -that- uptight about clanbuffs. --Tenebrys 18:29, 28 November 2005 (Central Standard Time)

We should put a listing for Mr. Store equipment, as well. From what I've noticed on Item and Meat Drops, they're being classified as Villa/Diety only as of right now. What sayeth?

  • Two major problems to the current categories, as I see it.
    • You pick your class the very first time you play, and the Beat Your Nemesis quest is dead easy, so anybody should have access to Class specific equipment. I suppose you could limit it so Apathetic Lizardmen don't get it because they didn't bother to do the optional quest.
    • You can pick a Moon Sign as soon as you ascend. You don't even have to be hardcore. At the very least, Hardcore players should have access to this.

--RyokoYahagi 14:52, 10 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Even aside from the question of classification, these are mostly complete messes by now. Whoever's been maintaining them has been doing so by simply dropping in the highest-value new items and effects as they appear without regard for whether they can actually be utilized at the same time (e.g. red, black and green tongue all at once, or a pike pike equipped with flaming talons). Anyone up to diving in and trying to untangle the mess? --Ben-San Arizona 04:16, 19 March 2006 (CST)

"From this, it's easy to see that if you're a dedicated Fernswarthy's Basement delver, you may wish to skew your base stats towards Mysticality and Moxie and away from Muscle." - This statement is false: it doesn't matter what your highest base stat is, since you can always use an equalising potion to make them all the same. So, although your basement diving will be limited by your *buffed* Mys/Mox, increasing your *base* Mys/Mox won't help at all. -- Tagliatelle 17:41 10th April 06 (BST)

The "Hardcore" label seems like a rather poor choice, as it has a clear meaning within KoL that apparently is not intended to apply here at all. Perhaps calling it something like "Ascender"? Or some other idea? --Hellion 12:35, 28 April 2006 (CDT)

  • Excellent idea! Ascender it is. --Gymnosophist 12:57, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
    • In keeping with that idea, then, perhaps a few of the equipment/buff classifications could be reworked...? Ascenders may have permed some non-buff skills, or they may not have. Certainly there are several that are universally recognized as must-haves. Perhaps a limit of 3 non-buff skills? Also, Ascenders should, I would think, be allowed to receive the Zodiac sign bonuses, as that is a key element of ascending. And finally, I would also argue that "Class-specific equipment" is both cheap and easy to acquire for Ascenders or better. --Hellion 17:25, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
    • To expand upon the idea a bit further, perhaps the description of "Ascender" vs. "Normal" could be rewritten along the lines of "Ascenders are people who play the game pretty steadily, and who are interested in improving their playing efficiency. They've done a fair bit of digging to determine what's the best type of item that they can afford, and they've developed at least a minimal strategy regarding what skills they want to keep over the next ascension or two. They have probably ascended at least 3 or 4 times." and "Normals are people who play the game pretty regularly, but are just having fun fiddling about and figuring things out. They're not too concerned about improving their efficiency. They may have ascended once, but jumped through the gash without much of a plan if they did." --Hellion 20:49, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
      • In my opinion, it might've been better to leave "Hardcore" as it was and added a new label for "Ascender", for the people who play and ascend frequently but have never done any hardcore runs (which are significantly more difficult than normal runs). --Quietust 14:55, 29 April 2006 (CDT)
      • Just reviving this, I also believe the Ascender category should have access to at least a few non-buff skills. As it is, with them being denied Zodiac Sign bonuses and non-buff skills, the Ascender shouldn't have access to shirts, but they do on most of the pages. (Meat even gave it to the Normal class, before I removed that.) If they have free access to SS equipment, they should have at least some non-buff skills. I also agree with the below comments about item effect costs; at the least the Ascender class should have SOME limit.--Salien 00:26, 30 July 2007 (CDT)

I think perhaps there should be a section for maximizing familiar weight?--Stik guy 15:27, 11 June 2006 (CDT)

Reducing the Item buff Meat maximums

It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a standard for editing these tables. The limits on the tables seem to be fine except for in the item buffs category. I think in order for these pages to be useful the item cost limit should be lowered. When farming for items a player must maintain the buff. I doubt that even a hardcore player would maintain a 30k buff for 200 turns let alone a normal player maintaining a 10k buff for more than 20 turns. It is simply not cost efficient. Now if these tables are not about efficiency then ignore this comment, but if the intent of the tables is to be accurate then the limits need to be lowered to something more like 1000 for Lizardmen, 3000 for normal players, and 6000 for hardcore players. --SomeStranger (Talk | Contribs) 20:16, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

  • I think I would say that these pages are, perforce, somewhat tilted towards theoretical use rather than practical. By this I mean that for many of the Stat/Game Mechanics included here there just isn't much practical benefit to maximizing, say, your Combat Initiative at the expense of other needed stats. Practical gameplay militates that players maintain a certain balancing of stats, with this balance depending on their class, skills at hand, adventure environment, player objectives, etc. I can hardly think of any situations in which a player would completely abandon this balancing act and truly work to maximize a single stat. Dedicated Fernswarthy's Basement adventurers working to overcome skill tests are about the only example I can think of. A secondary example are higher level farmers who don't care about leveling and who don't have to worry about getting hit and can just concentrate on maximizing their rate of return on adventures by farming. Some history on these pages is that they, in part, were developed to serve as answers to some "I wonder what the maximum x you could get is" questions posed. I can see that the buff allowance might be a little generous - perhaps limits of, say, 500 - Apathetic Lizardman, 2,000 - Normal , 10,000 - Hardcore, 50,000 - Villa, No Limit - KOL Deity might be better. Another approach is to set up a dedicated farming page; a page that analyzes such things as cost effective buffs and payback periods on pieces of equipment. I actually really like this idea. What do you think? --Gymnosophist 21:57, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
    • I would definatley like to do that. I think that you would only need two pages, one for item drop and one for meat drop. And maybe even a combined version of them. Those seem to be the two factors which people most likely would want to max and if we did an entire page meant as an analysis of icy peak farming with the benefits of item drops of meat drops balanced (since you can sell the skins) it would definatley be a very useful guide. --SomeStranger (Talk | Contribs) 22:12, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
      • I agree! If you like, why don't you take the bull by the horns on this one? --Gymnosophist 22:20, 20 April 2006 (CDT)


Character Type Descriptions and abilities

I don't know about anyone else, but these descriptions seem to skip a lot of space on the lower end of the spectrum. For instance, the apathetic lizardman already has 10000 meat worth of equipment. It seems to me that there should be something lower than that. More alarming, however, is the gap between Normal and Hardcore. This table seems to be based on the way the game USED to work, and actually describes how long they have been playing more than how hard they try. I motion that we revamp a few of these descriptions, and perhaps toss in a category between normal and hardcore. (Which, incidentally, is where I would fit in.) We could call this one "softcore", and it would be comprised of people who probably have ascended many times, and have gotten the hang of getting through all the quests easily, but still are not yet worthy of hardcore. These are people who use some of the items that the hardcore uses (I think one of these was the Potion Of Temporary Gr8tness), yet do not have access to IOTMs. It seems to me that this is a fairly large demographic, at least worth a mention. --PhantomTrogdor 19:05, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

I can't speak for the softcore category, but 10,000 meat's barely a day or two worth of play, really. I mean, how much lower than that can you go and really have a worthwhile category anyway?--Idran 20:12, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
Don't use the terms "hardcore" and "softcore" when discussing these pages. "Hardcore" has a very specific in-game meaning that doesn't apply here. The actual terminology used on these pages is "Ascender", which means that you may have run hardcore ascensions in the past, but you currently are not on one. Most of these optimizations depend on being able to pull equipment which you used on previous runs, which is not possible in hardcore. I don't know if there's a good way to label all of these pages to avoid confusion, but really they only help in non-Hardcore situations. --Jonrock 22:06, 17 September 2006 (CDT)
  • On the hardcore issue, the Explanation of Methodology starts off by saying that "All players are assumed to have full access to the mall and are free of any ronin or hardcore constraints". An explanation, or perhaps, because of the length of the Dressing For Success Methodology notes, just a link should be there. On the lower-than-an-apathetic-lizardman suggestion, I really don't see the point. On the "gap" between Ascender and Normal - I can't see that any such gap exists. As I look at the Recap Table, I see a big gap between Apathetic Lizardman and Normal, but otherwise, I see a fairly gently progression from Normal all the way up to KOL Deity. If anything, there's more of a gap between Villa and Ascender than there is between Ascender and Normal. Can you be more specific about the perceived Ascender/Normal gap? I also don't understand your comment "This table seems to be based on the way the game USED to work, and actually describes how long they have been playing more than how hard they try.". What game changes have occurred that make these tables obsolete? And "how long they have played" basically equates to "how hard they try" - again your point eludes me. Perhaps you can give some specific examples to illustrate your points. --Gymnosophist 22:39, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, First of all, the idea about the lower-than-apathetic lizardman, on second thought, was a bad idea. Scratch that part. Second, how long you have played has NOTHING to do with how hard you play. I do not see how you can possibly equate those two terms, since they apply to two seperate variables in players. There are some members who have been playing since before ascension, and did not try hard, and end up with about ascender-level items. And then, there are those who have not been playing long (Simply because they had not heard about this game until recently) but work their asses off trying to get the best items. Third, now that the Icy Peak has been changed, it is very difficult to get meat, and many people are unable to get the meat to buy largely expensive items from the mall without donating and then selling Mr. As. Or, at the very least, it is more difficult. Fourth of all, perhaps you are right, and the new category should be between Villa and Ascender. How about this: A category for a person who has all the best items that are currently available in the game without buying them via the mall. I think that that would probably be a good category to put in between ascender and villa...Also, it would be useful for the people who like to get items themselves rather than buy every little thing from the mall. Now, to explain this idea...I am assuming here that these categories are here to be USED as a GOAL, not to give the playerbase some sort of guide as to what categories they may fit into. If it is the latter, then this entire idea of categories is an utter waste of space. So, assuming that it is the latter, there should be a category representing the best possible items available to EVERYONE in the playerbase, and that includes the people who do not use the mall often, or do not have the meat to spend in the mall. --PhantomTrogdor 20:18, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

  • I'm sorry, but I think that you misunderstood me. When I said that there was a bigger gap between Villa and Ascender than there was between Ascender and Normal, I was merely making an observation, not advocating that a new category be made. Your various suggestions for new categories don't seem to be convincing or compelling, at least to me. Your latest suggestion is that a category be created that represents only things that can be obtained through gameplay and not through using the mall. This is really just another way of saying that we should create a category for the best possible hardcore gear (in the "true" KoL sense of hardcore). This would knock out the central assumption of the "Dressing" pages - that "all players are assumed to have full access to the mall and are free of any ronin or hardcore constraints". Further, I'm not sure that there are any players who completely eschew the mall. If there are, I certainly doubt that they go all-out to get the "best" gear - that's masochistic in the extreme!  :) Finally, as stated above, "these pages are, perforce, somewhat tilted towards theoretical use rather than practical. By this I mean that for many of the Stat/Game Mechanics included here there just isn't much practical benefit to maximizing, say, your Combat Initiative at the expense of other needed stats. Practical gameplay militates that players maintain a certain balancing of stats, with this balance depending on their class, skills at hand, adventure environment, player objectives, etc. I can hardly think of any situations in which a player would completely abandon this balancing act and truly work to maximize a single stat". I really need to make this clearer on the main "Dressing" page. --Gymnosophist 22:33, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
  • On this page, it says that ascender has no equipment that costs more than 1000000 meat, yet on the individual pages, it shows the ascender having things such as Mr. Store items. Which is it? --Barstool 18:10, 28 November 2006 (CST)

The "KoL Deity" class is meant to represent the theoretical maximum. It seems like they should get the full moon bonus (ie, 100% Wereseal and 80% Baio, OR 50% Grimacite, whichever is better.) That would clear up a lot of the unsightly "1329-1499" values in the summary column. --PlatypusNinja 16:06, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

I do not understand how an Ascender would not have access to non-buff skills if they are assumed to have ascended several times including some HC runs. An Ascender, whom we have assumed to have made several ascensions, should have access to some of the non-buff skills (Torso Awaregness and Double-Fisted Skull Smashing being my two primary areas of concern). I offer a set-up where, if, there are multiple non-buff skills for a particular maximizing area available the Ascender type has access to one of them. I would even go so far as to say that they have the best one out of the choices but definitely do not have all of them. Give the Ascender a shirt and option on dual wield, but not IotM type (multi-million meat) items in those slots. To sum up, an Ascender (non HC-centric) is theorized to have played aggressively, if not for a long period of time, and made a lot of progress would have realized that having an extra slot (torso) available, the ability to use more items (dual wield), and the best of the non-buff skills in their area of interest would have made that happen even if they do not have the monetary resources or total play time (ascension history) of a Villa(n).--Magered 02:11, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

  • Reading through the rest of the page to date, it seems there is a fair amount of support (Salien 00:26, 30 July 2007 (CDT); Hellion 17:25, 28 April 2006 (CDT); editors allowing shirts for Ascenders, and now you) for this view. Dressing For Success#Player Classifications describes Ascenders as players who've "ascended a number of times, including some hardcore runs," so it seems reasonable that they've got some skills permed for use out of ronin. We could use Hardcore Skill Analysis (which may be a little outdated) as a basis for figuring out which skills to include... So if we were to give Ascenders more leeway in terms of non-buff skills, Amphibian Sympathy would certainly be allowed (it's even more important now, with the familiar ascension nerf). But I'm not sure I agree with you concerning DFSS/Awaregness. Shirts, while nice, aren't so insanely desirable that someone with a smaller number of ascensions would be likely to have it permed. And what's the current thinking with DFSS? Now that LTSynergy no longer works, would it seem as attractive to someone just starting to ascend? What do people think? --Bagatelle 20:22, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
    • I'd say a more pressing argument exists for including shirts in ascender. A full third of ascended players will have access to the skill without perming it.
    • I think it's entirely reasonable to list DFSS, Amphibian Sympathy, Torso Awaregness, Mad Looting Skills, and Nimble Fingers because these are obviously skills that can be useful again and again in many ascensions, especially in Hardcore where you need every extra drop you can squeeze out. Even if not every Ascender has these skills permed, enough clearly see the benefits after even just one or two ascensions.--PassionFever 00:11, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
      • The same can be said of about half the skills in the game. Claws of the Otter is obviously something which is helpful, but that doesn't mean it's particularly useful to assume everybody has it. Assuming DFSS on these pages just means that rather than showing people a potentially useful offhand item or shield, you show them two of the same weapon. DFSS was my second permed skill, and I use it all the time, but it's still not useful to show it here because the obvious strategy is to just put another of your main weapon into your offhand if it's better to do so. It might affect the numbers at the bottom a bit, but I can't imagine they are particularly useful to anybody anyway as real people don't fit perfectly into these classifications, but it's nice to be shown some equipment that could be helpful. Regardless of the usefulness of the Torso Awaregness in general, I think that adding shirts to the lower classifications is fine because it's just more information for people. If they don't have Awaregness, they can just ignore that table entry. The difference is that you're not taking any information away by doing this. --JiK4eva 23:59, 13 December 2007 (CST)
  • I have to disagree with the torso awaregness since it was my third skill that I permed, the DFSS i do have to agree with since the nerfing of LTS/Stoat made it useless but on the other hand someone may have permed it before the LTS was nerfed so it is a matter of pre-NS13 or post-NS13 that we view the Ascender as but my vote would be add the torso to the ascender since it is a nice skill that many people will take as soon as they know about it. --Chunky_boo 20:44, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
  • Omitting things like Torso Awaregness from the Ascender column is stupid and will obscure useful data if adhered to, case in point, see the Maximizing Your Item Drops page... It makes it look like there's NO shirt anyone short of a Villa can use for Item Drop increases, which is just plain not the case. Same thing happened on the MEat Drops page, where a duct tape shirt is the only shirt listed, same for the Moxie page and the Damage Absorption page- the others aren't so bad because the shirts listed you can get through simple one-time drops or smithing, at least that gives some useful data. This is a classic case of well intentioned attempts at uniformity degrading the value of information for which the wiki is supoposed to be a reference. The whole point is to prvide a continuum of options so that players at all levels can maximize their play. An ascender who realized they didn't have Torso Awaregness would probably make the modest effort required to get it if they knew the benefits it could have, which is FAR preferable to just thinking that option does not exist. Please, fix this rule as soon as possible.--PassionFever 00:01, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Other outfits

  • What about Maximizing your Stat Gains? For those who want to powerlevel to 15 for the skills, or 30 for the you-know-whats? --Mozai 11:11, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Table Organization?

I've been going over these Maximizing tables a lot recently and noticed after equipment, everything is quite jumbled. Seeing as how the top of the tables is already grouped as equipment, I would like to suggest the rest of the table be grouped by skills, effects from items and skills and if at all possible, adding a header above each one. I believe this would increase readability. --Azrane 07:41, 15 February 2007 (CST)

A lot of the jumble (at least in the Mus/Myst/Mox tables) comes from generic buffs that are common to each of the stats. Examples are the Sauce potions, Goofballs, Phonics Down, Heart of Foo, Dungeons of Doom potion, Chips buff, Egg buff, Clan buff, Crimbo buffs, AT buffs, level-0 class-skill buffs, and the Haunted Bathroom medicine cabinet buff. If these were moved to a separate page, it might make the table easier to read. --PlatypusNinja 16:18, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

I created a prototype Dress-For-Success<generic stat buffs> table. I wasn't sure how to create a user sandbox, so it's living in the global one for now. My thought is that we could use this to remove clutter from the three existing stat tables. That would be a fairly significant change, though, so I thought I would get people's opinions first... --PlatypusNinja 19:07, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, I meant to respond earlier, but I got sidetracked with other projects. Were you thinking of moving the generic buffs to a separate page? From a maintenance perspective, I would be against that, as I see this series' main point as getting to the final total for each player type. Checking that the separate components to sum correctly is hard enough without having to consult a different page. And when new effects come in, we'd have to edit that page plus the totals on this one. My two Meat; others may feel differently. --Bagatelle 17:25, 12 July 2007 (CDT)
Fair enough. --PlatypusNinja 19:51, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Would people find it useful to split out effects due to different sources (e.g., food, booze, spleen, other) in order to plan their diets? Keep in mind that the page is rather cluttered already, and adding fullness hits will make it increasingly ugly. --Bagatelle 15:15, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

ML or/and Stat Gains

How about maximizing Monster Level? or even just Maximizing Stat Gains? or combined? or all 3? This is because some people want stats, without it affecting how strong the monsters are, some people don't care how high the monster level is because their moxie is high enough, etc. --CG1:t,c,e 15:20, 18 March 2007 (CDT)

  • Hmm, the closest thing we have right now is LTSynergy. That page (would ideally) list all Monster Level effects, but it is slanted towards providing Bonus Melee Damage and Combat Initiative too. I don't think there were really all that many Monster Level modifiers when these pages started up. The same goes for stat gain bonuses. I wonder what other game mechanics might possibly benefit from a "maximizing your" table. I think it's safe to say that Combat Frequency never will, for one. Anyway, to answer your question, I think there should at least be a Maximizing Your Monster Level page. For stat gains, even now there is hardly any equipment that provides a bonus: just five off-hand items, a rather uncommon accessory, and a couple of ranged weapons (according to the page at least). For maximizing effects, it's easy just to go down the list on that page and see what is available for you. That is speaking strictly on terms of non-monster level induced stat gains though. I can see why you would think it would be useful to combine the two too, since Monster Level directly translates into stat gains. I too think that combining the two into a table would be a good idea. I'm torn between creating both a pure "Maximizing Your Monster Level" and a combination of the two or just creating the combination of the two. Does anyone else have an opinion? How about the names of the pages? Dropping the "Your" for "Maximizing Monster Level" definitely sounds better (and makes more sense)... --TheDotGamer 07:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
    • I probably should have read this first... but I just made a Maximizing Monster Level page. It can be moved if there is a problem. --Barstool 12:30, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

Bad Moon Effects

I haven't seen any being added yet, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to add Bad Moon effects (Brimstone equipment is fine, though) because no-one in Bad Moon is going to be maximising anything, and it'd be difficult (impossible?) to synergise all the appropriate effects. Perhaps a note should be affixed to the methodology section or the appropriate tables. --Bagatelle 19:18, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

  • Although having even one of the effects on could be useful for basement divers... Does anyone know if the adventures can be encountered after breaking Ronin/if they are one-time? --Bagatelle 19:14, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
    • Although although, apparently Hagnk's is never available, so BMers aren't going to have access to their storage goodies, ever. So BM effects are out, and I'm going to stop talking to myself --Bagatelle 20:24, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
      • Hagnks is unavailable, its just not there. Can be accessed through scripts or simple javascript use. --Eugene 02:29, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
      • Who says their stuff has to be in storage? You can still get things out of your display case, can't you? —Yendor 06:29, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
        • According to Display Case, you are not allowed to pop display items out in Hardcore/Ronin. Do you have evidence that it is allowed in BM? If it were, I'd suspect it's unintended, and would be patched. --Bagatelle 17:20, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
          • Having Bad Moon as a sign doesn't always mean you're in HC; after freeing the King HC restrictions are lifted and you can pull/put things in a DC--Supernova163 00:01, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
    • Even after breaking the crystal in Bad Moon, you still don't get any of your skills back. Nobody's going to be basement diving without skills. (Also, the adventures are indeed one-time.) --PlatypusNinja 01:01, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

However, the KoL Deity class is EVERYTHING in the game that can be accessed, even custom items no one else can ever get, why not include BM effects in there? I think BM effects should be on the KoL Deity category. --Duff 14:28, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Suggestion: Item Availability Level

I was just thinking that it might be good the have the addition of a table centered around Character Level included with each category. The very 'best to dress' is good to know, but what about the best available based on where one is at different points during an average ascension? If we look at the high-end maxing of skills as the end stage, what about during the progression of Ronin, First-Run and Hardcore ascensions. Gaining a quest doesn't mean it is completed at that level but it does determine what drops and items become available to certain extent. Also, access to most areas are based around main stat amount, so it would only need some addenda related to class and zodiac sign. Is there anyone else interested in this?

Also it seems to me that the Maximize pages should have clearer links to their specific comprehensive item lists and related pages, I always seem to be hunting around for cross-links. ...And, Yes I know they're usually at the top, but when you're scanning for a link, are you looking for a word to point you there or heading? I probably reference this section and Mechanics more often than anything else as a testament to its value and its contributers. Some circular group links under a 'See Also' heading would be useful. I'd work on some of this but I not real familiar with the standards and practices here. Also, someone has gone through a lot of trouble recently to clean up these pages so I don't want to go upsetting the apple cart. --Xclockwatcher 13:44, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

  • Interesting idea. Someone proposed this (Hardcore, at least) before, and I shot it down because I didn't think a HC player would spend all those turns backfarming all the items and ingredients. While they'd boost to a certain main stat to a certain point to unlock an area, I don't think they'd maximise. I guess the question is, "What do people use these pages for?" I'd assumed that it was primarily for kicks, to see how big things could get. As a side effect, basement-divers could see what kind of a boost they could reasonably expect to get, and level accordingly.

    I think your Character Level idea has some merit (for SC/casual), but my gut feeling is that it would be a nightmare to implement and maintain. Perhaps the way to go here is to write a program that parses the appropriate modifier data. Then, the moon data, requirements, actual stat rating (not the assumption of 100, so percentage and absolute boosters could be chosen correctly), and what the player has available/is willing to buy could be taken into account.

    I wouldn't worry about "upsetting the apple cart." The Wiki is 99.99% editable for a reason. If you're worried about lack of know-how, you can always check out Help:Contents and Established Standards, or cry for help on a talk page. Just remember to leave the page better than when you started, and that snark is generally reserved for lack of proofreading and adding incorrect information. --Bagatelle 20:24, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

After working some with Maximizing Your Muscle, I have some additional points for discussion:

  • Do people want effects granted solely from adventures to be added? It would be difficult to get them to stack due to the Adventure Queue/their low duration. I suppose only Villa/Deity would even make the attempt to stack them. Currently, Spirit of Alph is listed on the MaxMus page, although Pumped Up and Mad at Science are not.
  • The deflation of wad prices/reagent potion prices (thanks to the NS13 Sauceror baking nerf) have really narrowed the differences at the bottom end of the player spectrum, at least for the stat tables. Do people still find the separations meaningful (would Lizardpeople even use this table?)?
  • Should day-dependent effects be added (Dependence Day, Tuesday's ruby, others?), and if so, which player classes have access?
  • Lots of the effect-granting potions/equipment, while within the stated price range for Lizardpeople, have a very limited mall supply (e.g., battered hubcap). Should prices be treated specially if there aren't a lot of items available, even if the items will eventually drop for any player?
  • Starry-Eyed: clearly, the Deity is allowed the full 35%, but what about Villa?
  • Should Ascender and Normal be allowed Clan access? Their meat limits (1M, 100K) can certainly purchase the clan trainers and buffs.

--Bagatelle 15:28, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Suggestion: MP or HP regeneration

I have noticed that this page is lacking a subsection for items which gives maximum regeneration, like chef's hat or the various staffs or familiars, which regenerates a few MP for adventure. Grammar nazi 04:35, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Bad Moon Rewards

I've just added the brimstone beret to the moxie page, only to Deity. Should we give them to Villa, too? It makes sense, since they already have the plexyglass and the definition is that they have access to "the best item and effects that anyone can obtain" --Worthstream 16:41, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

  • I'd say go for it. The Villa folks have supposedly achieved HOxy rewards, and my feeling of BM so far is that it's of comparable difficulty. They even have about the same daycount as HCO runs on the leaderboards at the moment. --Bagatelle 17:12, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Suggestion: Maximizing Familiar Levels and Maximizing Combat/Non-Combat Adventures

Think we should make one? I mean some familiars like the Baby Gravy Fairy or Leprechaun can benefit from extremely high familiar levels (as well as other familiars a bit), and maybe add one for maximizing combat and non-combat adventures, or at least compile all the items that increase and decrease them.--JohnAnon 23:28, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

  • The combat/non-combat one would basically be the entire mechanics list for all player classes, once the puppy/non-buff skills are excluded, so it wouldn't be too exciting. The familiar weight table would have more variation, but I don't think it would be terribly useful. If you're trying to maximise weight, you're trying to maximise some familiar ability, generally item/meat/stats/etc; those are already integrated (or should be, in the case of stats, I guess) into the maximising pages. --Bagatelle 21:49, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Rewrite to end feud

I have attempted to do a reclassification of the classes. See User:Chunky boo/dressingrewrite and comment please. --Chunky_boo 22:26, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

  • Unless I hear any objections otherwise I am going to attempt a rewrite of the page in a couple of days. The rewrite will mostlikely be similar to the rewrite on the above link. If you have objections to this or ideas to make it better please put it on the talk page of the above link. --Chunky_boo 14:30, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
    • I think the gap between Normal and casual is too wide. Make Normal "Less than 5 ascensions (no hardcore)", and have a limit of 2 MCD specials.--Ac1983fan 07:02, 28 November 2007 (CST)
    • Personally, I wouldn't mind a Hardcore listing, showing what items, skills and effects could reasonably be collected on a single run. *Recurring* seasonal items are a maybe, but in general, no access to multiple items, and no cones, hearts, and no items that require heavy farming, like duct tape or bounty items.--Terry 18:52, 29 November 2007 (CST)
    • Why have the classes at all? This seems to be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing (except perhaps bragging rights) there are so many duplications in the 5 "classes of adventurers, why not just list the "top 5" items in each unique slot, top 5 combinations of (2h weapon OR 1H weapon+offhand OR 2 compatible weapons) and perhaps 15 accessories? --Caliburn 20:39, 29 July 2008 (CDT)Caliburn 20:36 CDT 7-29-08

Classifications

In my opinion, the Casual player is currently overpowered. They have access to stainless steel equipment, which seems unreasonable to me because it is fairly time-consuming to collect them all. At most they should be able to equip one piece at a time (in Maximizing your Mysticality both the scarf and the solitaire are used). My suggestion is that Casual players can have one piece of SS, Ascenders get unlimited SS but one plexiglass or brimstone, and Villans can have as much as they like (similar to the way we used to MCD items). The way I use the tables is to go down the classifications for each slot until I find one that is reasonable for me, and if everybody has access to everything, they become much less useful. The Casual player also has DFSS permed, which (unless I'm much mistaken) isn't a particularly common skill, and it also obscures the tables because it invariably just shows that you could equip a second of your primary weapon.

Also, the Normal player's maximum equipment value of 100,000 is fairly high, over the seven equipment slots this could end up being 700,000 in equipment. Even if we're assuming that people are willing to spend all their Meat on maximizing something, there are still a lot of players off the bottom of this spectrum who won't get much out of these tables.

I would also like to suggest that it's reasonable for KoL Deities to have access to a single adventure buff. They aren't reasonably stackable even for Deities, but surely they can get one? --JiK4eva 23:45, 13 December 2007 (CST)

  • What I find irritating about maintaining this series is that whenever someone complains about the methodology, and then someone else engages them on the issue, the conversation dies. Case in point: the current methodology was updated a couple of months back, and when comments were solicited, a total of four people took the time to give feedback. Oddly enough, those who bothered to comment were in favour of adding Brimstone equipment, on account of the fact that BM runs aren't that much harder than regular HC runs, which Ascenders can do.

    Anyway, enough with my ranting. On your other points, good call on the DFSS doubling one-handed weapons. Perhaps instead of (in addition to) a "maximising" series, we should have a "best equipment" series, which lists the top X pieces of equipment, by absolute and percentage (although outfits would be sort of hard to display, and much of that could be done by simply reading the stat modifier pages). On Meat costs, again, we'd need feedback. How much is a player (of a certain classification) willing to spend on equipment/buffs? On the adventure sources, I'm not keen on adding them. The "normal" adventures have pretty low modifications (I think the best is +10 Mysticality for Dreams and Lights), and thus would have no effect for all practical applications of the Deity class. The BM adventures (The best stat ones are +50%) are one-time only, require micromanagement to retain them for when you want them to occur, and we'd run into problems with cross-class skills being unavailable (e.g., What Do We Want? allegedly gives Meat drops, but then we'd have to factor in dual-wielding (SC) and passives (Sauceror)). It would look awfully weird for the Deity class to be denied passive skills. --Bagatelle 13:30, 15 December 2007 (CST)
    • Actually, I agree that even the Deity can't sensibly get one-time BM adventure effects at a convenient time. However, is it any less sensible than custom items? I remember when I first started playing that 50k for a store seemed like a lot, I certainly didn't have 700k to spend on equipment. Also, while it's possible to get a reasonable amount of meat quickly, that requires knowing things about the game, for example that clovers are very valuable and can easily be sold to rich players. What would be nice, but a nightmare to actually do and I don't think it would be a good idea on balance, would be if each classification had a total budget their entire outfit. With respect to the classifications, I would happily spend 10m on equipment to help with basement diving, but I wouldn't spend 500 turns under Arse-a'fire (which is ~10k per turn but that would be much higher by the end of my 7th dive). I'm somewhere between Ascender and Villa, if anything I would say that Villans should have a higher equipment budget as they are well ahead of me in just about every other respect. I acknowledge that for a lot of (most?) players, BM isn't much harder than HC, I had always thought of it as being very daunting, probably more so than HCO, because I have 25 HC permed skills and a Mr. Store familiar. I don't really know how much other people would spend on equipment/buffs, hopefully we will get some feedback on this one.--JiK4eva 22:18, 15 December 2007 (CST)

I agree that ascender should get one BM reward and one HCO reward, and that Casual should get one HC reward. This keeps the whole table from continuously slanting towards the stronger players- I remember when Casual barely got anything.


Thanks for rewriting it, I guess. :-) A few comments

  • the stat pages have large sections of buffs from items across the board. it makes them hard to read, and lessens the difference between the last 2 types
  • for myst and moxie, there are only 2 permed skills for each - the level 0 skills for those classes. this means that bad moon has the potential to give a higher value for every type of player
  • I really think these should be focused on basementing, almost exclusively. that means the stat tables for lower player types need to be changed :-/
  • oh, and the little redundant section at the top adds whitespace and looks nice --Mar 17:52, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I've never been a big fan of the classifications and think that they don't reflect anything actually in the game. I often find myself going to the equipment lists for the category to determine what I have that gives me the best set of stats based on what I can own and buy at a given time. I would really appreciate a list sorted by item type (hat, shirt, weapon, etc.) then effectiveness rather than "Deity vs. Apathetic Lizardman" comparisons. --Ithanox 11:45, 18 July 2008 (CDT)

I agree. I, too, have never been a big fan of this classification system. KOL Deity, Apathetic Lizardman ... it's frankly fanboyish and silly. Don't get me wrong entirely, I am glad that a Maximizing chart was started at all, and thankful, but every day these pages get older is a day that it becomes more evident that amateurish artifacts persist in the current version. Almost more bothersome than that, though, is how redundant some of the items in the tables are. I think a much, much better classification system would involve, first, renaming the classifications, then listing the top five items (or fewer, only if fewer than five exist) for a given effect, rather than listing the top two across all five slots when there are more items that supply an effect, however inferior they may be. Example, Weapon selections in the Maximizing Your Meat Drops page lists the bottle-rocket crossbow twice, then three entries of the muculent machette, when there are other weapons that serve low-end Meat drop enhancement, like the penguin whip, that should be options accounted for considering the space exists. Short Version: Rename the ridiculous classifications to something more pseudoprofessional, list the top five items supplying an effect for an item class on its Maximizing page. Nigh Throbbing 02:03, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

And while I'm looking at it, I think the whole section on Equipment/Buff Classification needs to be largely thrown out or revised. Is this page about Dressing for Success, or Dressing for e-Penis? Custom Equipment is not going to be a concern for more than 99% of all players and is not worthy of mention. Ultra Rare items are actually available to anyone. Mafia Prize Raffles ... so what? This is pure self-referential e-Penis validation, all of this KOL Deity, Villa player business. Again, this is supposed to be about Dressing for Success (across several pages of Maximizing), not "if u hav dis den u hav epenis and u r a GOD!!" As I suggested before, if this classification system is instead geared toward simply listing the top five items of equipment (et cetera) available that promote an effect, then we would not need these silly Equipment/Effect budget ratings, or most of this Equipment/Buff Classification section could be deleted - which would reflect its current reality of being totally unnecessary. Nigh Throbbing 02:14, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis loot

Where should they go? Deity and Villa? Deity only? -- Tenks 14:03, 29 June 2008 (CDT)

Deity is a given. They get access to all pieces of equipment. I'd say Villa, too, and probably Ascender as well. Possibly with a limit on how many pieces of clan loot you can use for non-deity types. You don't have to be an exceptional player to make a contribution to a Hobopolis run, but getting a bunch of pieces does require time and effort. --Flargen 14:44, 30 June 2008 (CDT)
I'd say Villans should also be allowed unrestricted access. It's in the spirit of "anyone who works hard enough can attain it." I agree that lesser types should have a restricted number. Of more concern to me at the moment is that the guidelines are showing their age, with the recent new content/inflation. Is there anyone interested in commenting on/contributing to a rewrite of the rules? Kinda funny I'm even asking this when the pages haven't been updated since the first rewrite, and the last time only four people bothered to comment... --Bagatelle 22:46, 30 June 2008 (CDT)
Nowhere. Dressing For Success is based off of 150 stat max, and all Hobopolis gear requires 200 stat.--Toffile 19:35, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
Good point, surprised I forgot about that considering I was part of the nay-sayers on the Vibrato stuff. Well, hypothetically that guideline can be updated as well. See Bagatelle's question about updating the rules and such directly above. --Flargen 19:41, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
And now that I think about, this and similar discussions on the maximizing talk pages are really begging the question: do we update the dressing for success standards to allow for stats up to 200? They're currently limited to 150, meaning every piece of hobopolis gear is irrelevant to these pages. Since so many nice items have come out that require stats of over 150 (which I believe was completely unheard of last time standards were drafted), I would think it's time we go ahead and remove the stat requirement/up it to 200. Or maybe just remove it for Villa and Deity and leave the lower tiers at 150 (assuming they're less likely to want to be maximizing stuff after level 13)? --Flargen 21:14, 5 July 2008 (CDT)
I think that we should update it all to 200 mainstat now that Hobopolis has provided high level content. You can now see people at level 15 trying to maximise stats now, so I think it should be updated because it's now relevant, whereas it wasn't before. I'd say give Villa people unlimited Clan Dungeon Loot access, but Ascender no more than 1 from each hobopolis boss.--Melon 09:17, 6 July 2008 (CDT)
I'd say just remove the cap entirely. At the very least, there's no reason for there to be a cap on Dieties since they "represent the theoretical maximum".--Tenks 17:34, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

I've put some discussion points for a rewrite below. I'll put more effort into it if it seems the community is willing to come together and find some consensus on it. Of course, if anyone wishes to bring up additional points, by all means, let's hash it out. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

Tentative Methodology Rewrite July 2008

With the recent addition of new high-level content, the guidelines governing what is and is not available to each character class are becoming less useful. Let's discuss how best to change them, compared to the rules before the Llama Lama/Hobopolis came along; i.e., this revision.

Assumed Stat Level

Issues
  1. There is now a huge difference between what a low-character level player can equip, and what a high-character level.
  2. It would be nice to be able to calculate the summary rows as in the old revision, combining the percentage boosts with the absolute boosts into one compact number.
  3. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

I'd say that for equip requirements, we should junk any assumed stat level, and allow each player class to have base stats as high as necessary. The large spread in equip requirements now makes it more useful for a person looking to boost stats during the ascension game to peruse the complete mechanics table instead. This series is about maximising. We can note the requirements in the first column, below the entry name, if totally necessary. As for calculating percent versus absolute, this is only an issue in the Mus/Mys/Mox series. Perhaps presenting absolute and percent options for each equipment item and/or calculating break-even levels? Obviously, this makes the tables much more complex. The summary rows in this article would also be broken up into percent and absolute in this case. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

  • As far as Mus/Mys?mox go, I think it would be better to ignore stats entirely. Yeah, so it would mean that almost all the equipment would be % based and not flat increasers, but they become less relevant as you get to high levels, and the only time someone is going to want to maximise is when they're in the basement and will be a high level. We definately need to allow 200 stat requirement stuff to be equipped now. --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
    • I don't think that will be very useful. See the Maximizing Your Mysticality page for the prime example: it takes an unbuffed myst of 834 to warrant switching to the drywall axe over the listed equipment, and I'm not convinced we need to be catering to that high of a stat. That's pretty close to level 30 for a myst class. Basementers frequently aren't level 30, even at the very end. You only need to go to 30+ if you lack good gear or are getting a level 30 trophy along the way. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I think it makes sense to create a new classification of High Level (a la Ascender, Diety), defined to be having access to and ability to wear all high level equipment. Hobopolis was designed to encourage ascending -- it is required to collect all the glyphs, and it may prove useful in order to rebalance your clan's class distribution for the purposes of shows -- so even dedicated Hobopolites will not spend the entirety of their existence able to equip all their high level gear. Thus I think we definitely want to keep the current categories to some reasonable stat limit that is expected to be available upon freeing the king. --alacrity 20:07, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Interesting. I suppose the crux of the matter is what people actually use these pages for. Basementing, PvP, just for giggles to see how high they can get their stats? This is usually only an issue for equipment (though some consumable effects have stat/level requirements). Perhaps the way to go is to show separate equipment entries instead of making a new player classification. This would help to alleviate some of the obfuscation in equipment choices, while keeping some of the cost guidelines. Example below... --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  Deity
Hat Uncapped Stat biggest % hat/biggest absolute hat (in practice, always % for uncapped)
Capped Stat (150) biggest %/biggest absolute for 150 stat
  • That's kind of nice, though it will may introduce a complexity to the tables (with row spanning columns) similar to the Best Foods pages, which are a nightmare to edit, and as a result have a ton of errors that nobody wants to fix. Personally I used the Maximizing... pages for Basementing, and presumably will use them when I start Dungeoning more (while still not being "high level"), and even sometimes while ascending, though I don't expect perfect answers in that case, just perhaps some ideas. They're good for enumerating all the effects that might help you, at least. They've always been a little less universally useful for equipment simply due to the limited number of items listed and no means of specifying 2nd or 3rd best options for given slots. --alacrity 19:02, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Well, the various player classifications are meant to give something of a "2nd or 3rd best option". When they all have pretty much the same item/effect it means "this item is really easily obtained, typically from the mall or an NPC store". This isn't always useful for people in hardcore, but these pages weren't intended for that (since their resources are inherently impossible to predict). Those people would be better served going to pages like Moxie Modifiers and Elemental Resistance to see a list of all possible effects and pick the best ones they have. The Maximizing pages simply cut out the busy work for the "balls to the wall" attempts by the various player types. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

Inflation/Cost

Issues
  1. The value of Mr. Store items has risen dramatically in recent months, pulling the value of other items up with it.
  2. There have been remarks in the past about restricting costs based on total cost rather than per-item cost. This becomes increasingly relevant as more items are added to the game.
  3. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

Shall we tie equipment costs to the value of a Mr. A? Say, Villa allowed to spend up to two Mr. A for a single piece of equipment, Ascender maybe one? The lower classes have low enough ceilings that a firm Meat limit is good enough. Meat guidelines for potions/buffs are OK as-is, I think. Unless we want to do a per-turn cost analysis? On total vs. per-item, I'd prefer to keep it per-item for simplicity's sake. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

  • I think the limits on what each class can have should be tighter than it is now. Maybe Lizardman is limited to stuff that they would only find that drops in quest-relevant areas? The one problem I can see now as shown by the meat drops page is that there isn't too much difference between Deity and Villa sometimes, but I'm not sure what sort of meat limit I'd give Villa. --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
    • The similarity between Deity and Villa is because the market is normally pretty stable and slow to inflate. Plus the fact that it's hard to squeeze out that much more than what can be acquired with villa resources. Items and effects just don't scale that much in this game. They do get access to ultra-rares and grimacite, though.

      Tying wealth levels into Mr. A's may work. It sort of seems like adopting the gold standard instead of going off of it, though. And we could actually go for a more specific kind of cost restriction, such as: may spend up to a total of X, but with no single item worth more than Y and no 3 items worth more than Z; with X, Y, Z possibly expressed in terms of Mr. A's. This could allow Villa or Ascenders to keep access to at least some of their more expensive items, but inhibiting them from acquiring a full set of marvelous gear through dint of the ever-increasing number of items in the Kingdom. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis AT Buffs

Issues
  1. Since there is a casting limit, these will have limited access via buffbots.

Villans+ only? Maybe Ascenders? --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

  • I'd agree with Villans+. Since the Hobobuffs can only be cast by an AT onto someone that's level 15+ only a certain number of times per day. --Azrane 21:54, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I'd go with Villans+, too. I figure they can usually be assumed to have enough connections, in and out of their clan, to arrange for a reasonable number of adventures worth of these buffs on a fairly regular basis. For ascender and below this is probably too difficult to arrange except maybe once every blue moon or so. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis Equipment

Issues
  1. These are untradable. Several dungeon runs must be completed before a meaningful set can be completed.
  2. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

It's been noted above that a number limit might be appropriate. I'd say Villa+ gets unrestricted access. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

  • I agree. Maybe ascender gets access to about 3, and the others don't get access to any? --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Actually, only some of the items are untradeable. A fair number of them are tradeable. I'll assume you meant this section to be strictly about the untradeables, since the tradeables are handled naturally by the economy and price restrictions for the character types. As for availability, I also agree that Villa+ gets unrestricted access. Ascender should probably get a single piece at best. When I hear "Ascender" I generally assume we're talking about someone who's actively trying to ascend to acquire skills, ascension rewards, and new personal speed marks; and possibly acquire some sort of reputation (through his ascension record) to help his progress into Villa status and to justify getting equipment loans from Villa and Deity-types. So I don't imagine they should be assumed to have put forth that much time post-ascension. 3 pieces tops, definitely, but I'm thinking just 1. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
    • There's a huge gap between "ascending multiple times" and "getting 10 million to visit Hobopolis". Maybe there needs to be a category between "Villa" and "Ascender", maybe "Expert"...someone who truly has enough influence in the actual community to get reliableaccess to Hobopolis. --Listen2Reason 20:59, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Acquiring 3 pieces of Hobopolis gear is trivial. Most members of Piglets of Fate and Hogs of Destiny have significantly more than that, and that's with people actively ascending. They just spend some time near the end of their run in Hobopolis, get some loot, and ascend again.--MattG987 13:46, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Trivial for upper-tier player classes. People just starting out will boggle out their eyes when we "suggest" they can attain high-level Hobo loot so early in their careers (I'm working under the perhaps flawed assumption that newer players are going to have a tough time joining a clan with access to the dungeon to grab the untradables--tradables are fair game). There is also the issue with very high-level loot, like the hamster (is this the only example?). --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Piglets of Fate is all of the people who want to join Hogs of Destiny, but are new to the game... finding a clan isn't particularly tough. The hamster and Hodgman coat certainly shouldn't be in any of the lower 3 classifications, but the other items (the ones determined by RNG rather than turncount) should be at least in Ascender and Casual. Maybe Casual could have fewer, but Ascender and above should definitely have access to any number of them.--MattG987 04:29, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • I'm not the clan-distribution guru, but I'm fairly sure most people aren't in clans that large, and some of the clans as large as that require a substantial donation to the coffer to get hobopolis access (Senam's requires something like 1m I hear, and so do several others). There's a big difference between being in a clan that can do 6 raids a day and being in a clan that can do one raid every one to two weeks (and then they still might have to farm up meat for another raid every so often). If you're in a clan with 2 active members like myself (okay, we have 2 active bots as well, but neither goes into hobopolis), it takes 10-14 days to get one complete raid done; although I get several pieces of loot since there's basically no competition, it's still a substantial time and meat investment (especially that 10m initial cost). I'm probably on the other extreme end of the scale, but the point being that getting these items tends to require a substantial in-game expense (in days, turns, and/or meat) and/or a meaningful amount of effort expended in the community to get into a large clan that can power through dungeons with minimum contribution from yourself (and still give you loot for it). --Flargen 05:17, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Selling the tradeable drops from Hodgman alone is more than enough to cover the cost of a single instance, so cost isn't much an issue. Because of this, Senam's 1mil payment required to enter a dungeon (likely out of his own greed) should not be factored into the restrictions in Dressing for Success. A group of people playing through casually can finish an instance in under 4k turns. And regarding clan size, 2-member clans are as much an extreme as KoL Addict's huge number of players.--MattG987 22:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
      • I think those drops would essentially be a part of their assumed wealth. That's basically how it has always worked; anyone can get an ultra-rare or piece of grimacite, after all, and only have to spend 1 turn or 1k meat to do so. And it makes best sense to let the person who can get the highest +items to kill all of the bosses, so lower tiers probably aren't even going to be in the equation to get these. I wish I had extensive data on how clans in the kingdom are treating non-loot drops; how trustworthy they figure the reporting of these are; if they try to optimize their +items on every boss; their distribution schemes; the breakdown of their dungeoneers by contribution/experience/wealth/etc.; et al. The consummables can be pretty useful for a clan that lacks a full squadron of 7+ divers (that can be coordinated) to get the number of turns needed for a 1 day run, too.

        And, incidentally, KoLA last I heard has a 1m clan karma (which takes 2m meat if you use only meat) requirement for the basement. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)
        • Again, you can't base it on extremes like KoLA and Cir Senam's clan. Also, to the commenter before you; what do the consumables dropped by the bosses have to do with the Hobopolis equipment?--MattG987 18:18, 28 July 2008 (CDT)
          • There was no commenter before me. Look at the code (and just how it looks). And the consummables have everything thing to do with your claim that "oh, you can just sell the boss drops and easily pay for the dungeon". That falls under the "each classification has a limited amount of meat to spend" umbrella. --Flargen 21:00, 28 July 2008 (CDT)
          • Sorry, that wasn't clear from either.--MattG987 15:47, 29 July 2008 (CDT)
        • After looking at the descriptions of each class that you're arguing over, it would appear that I fit into casual with my handful of softcore and hardcore ascensions, but I still have 4 pieces of hobopolis equipment. Yes it is expensive to get 11M for that initial run through hobopolis, but even with a clan of 10 people that's only 1.1M a pop. Future runs are 100k for each member and with a little investment into item drops you should be able to get over 7 items per run. Thus far that seems to be under the 4M limit that ascenders have. It is costly, but split across even a seemingly small number of people (ie 10) the cost comes down significantly and then you can sell the items to gain more meat. The 5 frozen dinners you can find in exposure esplanade can net you 250k alone. --Kinsoto 20:15, 29 July 2008 (CDT)

Adventure Buffs

Issues
  1. Some buffs take adventures to get; this makes them difficult to stack. Prior to the implementation of the llama, the only adventure buffs granting meaningful effects were Bad Moon adventures. This is no longer true: Path of the Roach.

I think we should allow all non-BM adventure buffs to the Deity class now. Even short ones can be extended with the Platinum Yendorian Express Card, if we want to get totally theoretical on it. Perhaps granting a number limit on lesser classes, based on the duration of the buff/how easy it is to stack with others? (This could get complicated.) Should we explicitly allow BM buffs? I'd say no--with no cross-class skills, this again could way too complicated. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

They can't be extended for very long, though. 5 turns from a PYEC. And spending the adventures to acquire these effects is usually contrary to the purpose of whatever it is you are maximizing; it would be better to just spend your turns making use of your best gear than to go out of your way to acquire some status effect from an adventure. So I vote no on these. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
It depends on how hardline we want the definition of "theoretical maximum" to be. Sure, it only extends by five turns, but someone obsessive enough can do that every day without burning turns at all. This could actually end up saving Meat costs in a deep basement dive, but as you said above, maybe we don't need to cater to the 0.0000000001% of that population. Was that a vote for a total no, or a small limit (e.g., Lama buffs)? --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
It was an overall no vote. Llama cockroach buffs are the only thing I might be willing to concede to, since it's "only" a 3 turn investment. Still, I don't see the point. 3 turns of 0% items (0 meat, 0 stats, etc.) so you can get 20 turns with, what is it, 30% more items? Doesn't seem worth it. Maybe only when you're fighting Hobopolis bosses all at once and want as many of the consummables as possible. --Flargen 20:17, 17 July 2008 (CDT)
There are definitely scenarios where one might spend adventures to gain effects for a specific purpose (e.g. acquiring +item buffs before hunting cursed pirates), and with scrap-mechanics, it's often easy to stack effects without using adventures (e.g. Saucerors can get the elemental resist effects and then scrap away to handle basement tests). So I think at least some of them should be included for players that can afford scraps, e.g. Villa and up.--Salien 12:54, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Ascension Gear

Issues
  1. There have been comments in the past that too many player classes are allowed ascension gear.
  2. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

Perhaps the old revision is too permissive. Should Casuals really be allowed a full suite of SS gear? Ascenders all plexi/brimstone/SS? --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

  • Ascenders should get all the ascension gear I think. Maybe the Casual rank would prefer softcore so don't get any? Maybe casual should show the limit of what's attainable if you never ascend? --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Casual should just be softcore. Ascenders can perhaps be allowed to use gear from at most 2 types of ascension, like: plexi/steel but not brim, or brim/ss but not plexi. Villa+ gets all 3 types. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
      • Perhaps we could add a class? Casual never ascends, so would have access to maybe one set of class-specific skills tops, Ascender is limited to normal ascensions (therefore being able to perm skills but not obtain equipment), and Hardcore Ascender (the new class) is allowed stainless steel and plexiglass equipment. Possibly brimstone as well. Deity should be allowed perfect RNG though - and thus access to adventure-given buffs. It's the theoretical maximum, right? Assume pure awesomeness. Let Villa represent a realistic maximum. --Atheoss 08:50, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
        • I really like the idea of adding a Hardcore Ascender class. While normal ascenders may well have some Stainless, the tables would be more useful if the Ascender class had access to suitably affordable rares and IotMs, and the Hardcore Ascender class had access to Stainless/Plexi. People consulting the table could see both sets of equipment side by side, and optimize between the classes if they had access to both. Particularly since, as has been mentioned, NS13 has raised the bar for obtaining Plexi. Also, a person who doesn't have an ascension reward may well ascend for it later on, but it's not useful to tell him that it's the best thing he can equip right now. --Commiebat 16:29, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
    • I highly disagree with making softcore ascenders unable to use any equipment that is gotten merely by ascending. ss/plexi/brim only has a time cost it has no meat cost so if we assume they can get ss then they can get either of the others as well. I also agree with the idea for a new class (hardcore ascender). --Uberferret 10:05, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
      • I dunno, the time cost of plexi is significantly more than a regular hardcore run. In the past, there have been complaints about the ascension gear obscuring other, cheaper choices. Anyone care to estimate "average" daycounts for unskilled HC(O)/BM ascensions so we can meaningfully discuss this? Also, the ruleset prior to NS13 didn't allow the third player class plexi gear, so maybe the tables have undergone power creep since NS13. --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Love the project and these optimization pages.

      I think the data on these pages should be organized by scenarios.

      Hardcore Ascension max, Normal Ascension max, mall and Mr. store. That is the best you can get out when running the senario. I.E. when in hardcore you cant use the stainless steel or plexiglas items. And from the mall.

      Often I get irritated that items/effects that are extremely rare and often last 10 rounds max clutter up the tables, might be something I will have to live with but if we can find a way to skip them it would be nice.

      If possible we could have a column stating the difficulty/rareness/price range for the objects and effects. Well tall order but if we are making a list for uncle crimbo might as well make it what we wish for not what we will get... --Dagger 15:37, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
      • The pages weren't really designed for players in hardcore. Your options are very limited in hardcore and are pretty much entirely dependent upon luck (short of ascension rewards). As such there's no possible way of handling "in ronin" and "in hardcore", or any other situation where equipment acccess is limited. In those cases you just have to pay attention to your inventory and figure it out (it's usually not that hard). And you can use stainless, plexi, and brimstone in HC; you always get access to the rewards for your previous ascension. Furthermore, those effects can all be readily acquired through the mall at prices well within reason for the indicated character classes (with maybe a few semi-rares that have inflated for various reasons), or even within the game itself. They're also crucial for maximizing pages, as they are much easier to forget or not be aware of than equipment is. And trying to include prices is impractical. A few items have extremely stable prices thanks to massive oversaturation, but most items have variable prices that can fluctuate noticeably from hour to hour. --Flargen 21:08, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

Gear/Effect Split

Issues
  1. Maximizing gear and maximizing effects use different methodology

I think a large protion of the difficulty with the Maximizing pages is due to the differences between maximizing gear and maximizing effects. With effects, they usually stack indefinitely, so a user simply wants to see available effects at different powers and costs, and then pile on all the ones they think are worth it; having one effect doesn't mean you don't want other similar effects. With gear, however, many pieces of gear will compete for the same slot; a user wants to see the options for these slots in order from best to worst, and then pop on the best piece of gear they have/can afford, and no longer care about the inferior pieces. As such, I think these pages would be both more usable and easier to maintain if they had 2 sections:

  • Effects: These can be organized basically the same way the pages are now, with all applicable effects listed and grouped into different cost tiers (it may be more sensible to group them into cost-per-power tiers, but that might be work work or confusing).
  • Gear: Instead of listing each tier and only the single best piece in that tier for each slot, instead list each slot and all applicable gear in descending order of power. Cost can be largely ignored; people are much more likely to know what gear they have access to, or quickly figure out if they have access to it or not, since gear is usually more or less permanently accessible. This would get tricky with effects that span multiple slots (2-handed weapons, outfits) or that are dependent on another slot (familiar equipment is usually dependent on familair), but I think would be more useful overall than the current setup. This is somewhat simialr to the modifiers page, but I think filtering out all the effects and grouping by gear slot makes it very usable for anyone trying to maximize a given modifier.

This split in methodology should render most of the questions about what Hobopolis additions to include where moot; gear is always listed at its appropriate power level.--Salien 16:05, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

  • I don't think listing everything is workable--at that point, we may as well just link the full list tables, as they are sortable. Full slot listing also breaks down in the case where there are synergies (e.g., ML of the Vibrato gear). Although maybe you're onto something--perhaps listing the top x items, instead of all (again, suffering from the synergy problem)? I can definitely see breaking down effects by cost per turn--the mutagens are egregious offenders in this department. --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Yeah, top x items makes more sense; in general, once we get down to gear an apathetic lizardman should have, there's no need to go further down the list. I think that should be workable. As I mentioned, I knew multiple-slot or cross-slot combinations would be an issue; maybe a separate column for multi-slot stuff, listing the slots used? I'm not sure how to use the sandbox on here, else I might try to proof-of-concept a relatively simple page that still has some complications, like Monster Level.--Salien 12:38, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
      • 'Scuse, evidently I forgot to perm reading comprehension. If it's a small table, you can just slap it onto here. If you want to put it onto a separate page, you can stick it into TheKolWiki:Sandbox, or create a subpage somewhere to play with (e.g., User:Salien/rewrite or Talk:Dressing For Success/rewrite). --Bagatelle 21:49, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
        • Excellent! I slapped together examples for just the gear concept for monster level and combat initiative at User:Salien/rewrite. If anyone else wants to take a look at that and comment, please do!--Salien 00:55, 18 July 2008 (CDT)
          • Hm, I dunno. I'd prefer that synergies be listed explicitly in complete rows, for greater transparency. Though, as noted, that'd take a heck of a lot of effort. But if people are satisfied with a simple list like that, I'd be happy to see it applied as a standard. --Bagatelle 20:27, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
            • I was actually going to ask if doing this would be possible, when I saw it here, Salien...is this the 'new organization' that the boxes at the tops of the pages? I hope so, it is, it's exactly what I wanted! Good job, Salien.--Hdier 10:49, 20 July 2008
              • I want to second Hdier's enthusiasm. Salien, you read my mind. I registered here simply to comment on this. I always find myself between categories. I would be a "non-ascending meat-farmer". I have a full Hodgman outfit but I've only had 2 softcore ascensions. I love what you have but I have two suggestions. One is grouping things of equal value, like they are in the current charts. The other is listing things multiple times like "item (w/outfit)" and "item (w/o outfit)." I know that doesn't solve the whole outfit effects thing, but it's a start. An example would be "porkpie hat (w/offhand, w/o outfit)" and a second entry of "porkpie hat (w/offhand w/ outfit." The modifier could say "+25 (+25 from outfit)." Just a thought, it may not work in all cases. Obviously, it gets complicated for stat modifiers where there are a bajillion pieces of equipment that affect muscle. However, using just the top 10~15 or so might not be too bad, especially if you group ones with equal modifiers. For percent modifiers, I think a whole separate chart would be in order. Someone can just look at their stat, do some quick math and figure out whether they want the best absolute or the second best % modifier. Again, very excited about this. thanks.--Rikitikitavi 15:31, 13 August 2008 (CDT)
    • I'd like to posit that, perhaps, the arbitrary grouping of player types is not ultimately useful. Other than the extremes of 'deity' and 'n00b', most players fall across categories. I can't say that I'm one or another, though I've been around a long time and amassed a large amount of items. I can tell you, though, that I use these pages to see what kind of gear I *should* use - and I scan from left to right (i.e. diety to lizardman) on each slot and equip the best thing that I have. I think that a better way to organize these tables would be to list the "best" X items for each slot. I realize that this will cause some issues when items interact with each other, but I'm sure you smart folks will figure something out.--Gunther Maplethorpe 21:13, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
      • Just wanted to stop by and say: I really like Salien's rewrite. I would find a table organized in that much more helpful than the current configuration, and because of the problem mentioned above: I don't fall into one category cleanly. I am interested in the most useful thing I have access to, regardless of what category of player is "supposed" to have access to it. Even though I haven't ascended yet (I've been basement diving and running hobopolis) I want to get into ascending, so the hardcore rewards will soon be available for my consideration, but I don't want the chart to be useless to me until then. Often I've found, through digging around, that there's an item between two of the categories that's missing: better than the casual one, but possible to get where the ascender item isn't. This is where the chart loses its usefulness for me: I don't need to be reminded which items give which effects, but rather, I just don't have a complete idea of what's out there. Mixie 07:55, 26 July 2008 (CDT)
        • If you want a complete idea of what's out there, you need to consult the full mechanics tables. Like Moxie Modifiers and Items from Monsters. The Maximizing pages are just intended to cut out the busy work for the high-end. An Ascender/Hardcore Ascender split might be nice, but we're definitely going to have to rethink how we present the information. The current tables already cause about an inch and a half of horizontal scrollbar for me, and it'll only get more bloated with more classifications. I suppose with one more class we could just make two tables, one for "Lizard/Casual/Ascender", the other for "Deity/Villa/HC Ascender"; that's kind of a split between the serious power gamer and the more relaxed gamer, too. I should get around to looking at Salien's thing one day... --Flargen 15:34, 26 July 2008 (CDT)
          • I would very much appreciate it if others would look at and comment on this proposal; resposne so far seems positive, it renders the majority of the other arguments in these sections moot, and it allows one to easily and quickly do exactly what these sections should: maximize your gear for that given attribute.--Salien 02:27, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

Day-Intensive Items

Issues
  1. BHH stuff takes super long to get.
  2. Duct tape, cursed pirate gear, nickel gear/hobo monkey; in general stuff that can't be traded, but takes time/effort to gather.

The BHH stuff here is the biggie. Should Ascenders be allowed the puppy/BHH gear? I.e., should we slap a daycount restriction on? This would be useful as Jick releases more untradable content because "they don't want people to just buy stuff from the mall." The other untradables are generally not so degenerate, or can be handled via Meat (cursed coins cost a lot)/consistency (if you can get Hobo gear, you can get nickels and therefore nickel gear). --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

New Class: Bad Moon

Bad Moon players may access buffs that players under no other signs can access. At the same time onnly 1/6 of a class can use a class-specific skill. How do we address this?Ludomonster

  • This has been traditionally been handled by ignoring it in the main table and putting applicable information in the Notes section. This is because most of the BM buffs are one-time and last for such a short duration, while you are giving up cross-class skills and bonuses. My vote would be to continue this treatment. This has already been brought up tangentially at #Adventure Buffs. --Bagatelle 20:09, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

Class Dependence

Currently the maximizing pages use some class-specific items. The Legendary Epic Weapons in particular. Should we disallow this or not? With hobopolis there are now a few items which offer percentile stat boosts for only a single class that are competitive with non-class-specific equipments. Perhaps it would be more desirable to move all class-specific equipments to the Notes section. --Flargen 19:43, 9 August 2008 (CDT)

Consensus on anything?

Discussion seems to have died down. Are we willing to say at least a few points have reached a consensus, and maybe just come to a decision on the remaining points? The maximizing pages continue to be mistakenly "updated" with hobopolis stuff, and the Maximizing Your Meat Drops page has been way off current standards almost since Hobopolis got released. --Flargen 20:33, 24 August 2008 (CDT)

  • A number of people have chimed in saying they like the "list the top x" idea, and Salien has pointed out that many of the other issues are handled by listing in such a fashion. It seems likely the project will go in that direction. I largely agree with Salien when he says people generally know what they have available better than rigid guidelines on the project page that people obviously aren't reading and never have (...), but then again it's useful to have guidelines in place so people have something to shoot for if they want to improve their max. Waffle waffle waffle. Maybe get rid of player classifications and put mall cost/real-life time investment as some sort of icon ($, $$, $$$, ...) and instead of summarising each player class, just quote Deity as the max and leave people to figure out what they want from the lists? Now that I've re-skimmed over the thread, maybe something like this would work (ML, tweaking Salien's draft):
Hat Shirt Pants Mainhand Offhand Accessory 1 Accessory 2 Accessory 3 Familiar Equipment Outfit
ElVibHat$$$ (El Vibrato Relics) 0 gown 0-50 ElVibPants$$$ (El Vibrato Relics) 0 ElVibSpear$$$ (El Vibrato Relics) 0 2H Weapon hockey stick 30 hockey stick 30 hockey stick 30 pitchfork 5 Relics 100
row with next-best items
hat$ (Theoretical Outfit) 0     pants$ (Theoretical Outfit) 0     some offhand$ (Theoretical Outfit) 0 acc 1$ (single-equip) 5             Theoretical Outfit 50
But, argh, sidescroll. And this would be hellish to maintain--one new item, and we have cells being pushed up and down all over the place (one thing the current presentation has going for it is its ease of maintenance--insert the best item with appropriate cost guideline). Maybe numbered list format would be better off? But then it's not formatted nicely with things in parallel rows. Just throwing ideas out there in the hope that someone will come up with the perfect solution. --Bagatelle 22:28, 24 August 2008 (CDT)
I think we can get away with only one accessory slot; as far as I know accessories never act in sets, so the only way they interact is that you can't wear more than one of the limit-1 stuff. People can figure that out pretty easily; if we're worried about it we can just put a tag or something on limit-1 items, and ensure the list contains enough items to cover all three slots. As for the dollar signs, I think that cost is still useful for categorizing effects (though cost/turn is better), but just clutters up the gear. If you already have the gear you don't care what it cost to get, and if you don't have it you'll probably look up what it takes to get it and decide if you can do it or if you just want the next step down. Protects us from having to categorize time costs alongside meat costs, and from having to try and take the market into account. As for difficulties updating... Yeah, it's a little bit of a pain, but at least you only have to update the gear chart when a new top-three or -five or so piece of gear comes out. That does happen, but not terribly often. Outfits can certainly require a lot more table cells to be shifted about, which is one of the reasons I think it's simpler to just stick them in their own column and leave it at that. If we really want to simplify maintenance, the table looks prettier than a bunch of slot-specific lists, but I don't know that it's really more usable, so I'm pretty open to the idea of just breaking gear down to a list of slot-lists.--Salien 03:07, 26 August 2008 (CDT)
  • So... why did the points made about Hobopolis Equipment get thrown out and they got marked as Villa and above only?--MattG987 13:31, 4 September 2008 (CDT)
    • Buried somewhere in that massive blob of text above, someone noted that people generally have an idea of what they have in inventory/what they can/are willing to buy, so the player classifications are not entirely necessary. There was a good amount of support for compressing everything into a list-style table at #Gear/Effect Split. --Bagatelle 19:16, 4 September 2008 (CDT)

I posted a link to this in the forums and this idea got a big thumbs up. Sorting the table shouldn't be a problem because you can actually make a table where each cell is ANOTHER table, allowing you to effectively add in items into the middle of a column without having to manually alter every row below it. If this makes no sense, check out the "source code" for the table below. You can see that as you read the code all of the pants are grouped together rather than doing it by row, which would be a serious headache. Another Idea I've had is to colour code each cell depending on a loose classification of each item, so ultra rares and grimacite can be coloured one way, ascension rewards another, and Mr Store items yet another. This would at least give an at-a-glance view of the availability (and a hint at the price) of some items. Obviously the colours would have to be less sucky than the awful ones I've chosen below.

Hat
Big hat 20%
Small hat 10%
Pants
Grimacite pants 200%
Mr Store pants 100%
Accessories
Ultra rare Accessory 200000%
Ascension Accessory 100%
Noob Accessory 1%
--Melon 15:48, 5 September 2008 (CDT)
  • I've gone ahead and made an example of what the Maximizing Monster Level page might look like on my user page. I've tried my best to make it look as nice as possible. Note that asterisks denote "one only" accessory equips and 2 handed weapons. Personally, I think the $$$ notation is way too hard for us to be able to successfully set down guidlines on (like the problems we're having with the current system), so I've ignored it. If people think my proposal is a good idea, we can go ahead with this.--Melon 14:20, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
    • I was just looking at the table you made and quite frankly I found it far more usable and useful than the format that is currently in use. I'd be quite happy if a version of that became the new standard. --Bale 16:20, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
    • Wow, I actually really like that. And that's probably the first opinion I've had on any of these Maximizing-Your-Whatnot pages. --[TechSmurf][T][C] 16:22, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
    • My problem with this would be that the maximum totals are a little harder to put together. There's not even an indication of what equipment combinations give the theoretical maximums; do you wear the El Vibrato gear or what? Outfit selection isn't very well accounted for, either, as they consume equipment slots that could be used for other pieces of equipment. It's basically a truncated, reformatted, and color-coded mechanics page. We certainly do need to avoid using $ signs or any other symbols, so I do like the idea of color-coding availability. --Flargen 16:45, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
      • One thing I have been slightly concerned about when making that table is the meat and item pages where familiar weight modifiers come into play, and due to the diminishing returns they give and the hobo monkey and hound dog, it would get very complicated very quickly. The problem with the outfit section is that the El Vibrato stuff does nothing unless all of them are equipped, which also complicates things further. I'm not really sure how we could settle these issues very easily. I do personally think that for many of the simpler pages, this system is far more practical for most people though.--Melon 17:01, 6 September 2008 (CDT)
        • Progress! I think some of the outfit issues can be handled by labelling the components as an outfit, and setting the first item to the bonus amount and leaving the others at zero (or maybe prefix the amount with "Outfit:"). I think maybe having required stat would be handy too, given the wide range of requirements now being observed. I'm not keen on colour-coding from a usability perspective (you'd have to memorise/provide a legend, and it doesn't help (colour-) blind users), but that seems to be the way the wind is blowing. I think maybe we can drop the maximum totals for subclasses and just quote the absolute possible max (Deity equivalent), assuming percentages win over absolutes. Then we can just pick up the best equipment from the top-level item in each slot. Or maybe just list a very quick summary table for the best arrangement? How are we handling the issue with "not replicating the entire mechanics list?" Listing top X (in which case some sort of "pricing" guideline would have to be implicit; otherwise Grimacite items would dominate)? --Bagatelle 19:22, 7 September 2008 (CDT)
          • Well instead of colour coding we could use super script numbers like in the hobo code binder page, which is essentially the same thing without colour. It would probably help to remove the Mr Store and clan dungeon distinctions and just lump them in with the general tradable no drop/untradable still drop sections. One suggestion on the forum was to get rid of untradable no longer dropping items, as those with them will tend to keep them in mind already and they're useless for everyone else.
          • I tried out listing all the brimstone/El Vibrato stuff on my table (didn't save it though) and in my opinion it was really confusing. I didn't really like the idea of adding lots of notes into the table itself in order to make it less confusing, and so few outfit effects are probably as relevant to most of the maximising pages as this one that it may be a non-issue in most cases.
          • It's true that we don't really need to list all of the items available. For example would anyone really equip the Styrofoam weapons to boost ML given the availability of some better weapons? I'm still unsure about a pricing guideline (it doesn't work for untradables at any rate) but maybe we could just include the cheapest of each for each amount in every equipment slot (for example, the styrofoam sword is the only mainhand +3 weapon we need, and the giant needle and bat whip are the only 2 +5 mainhand ones we need to mention). Failing that the styrofoam weapons can probably just be generalised as "styrofoam weapons".
          • Last thing I want to say for now (honest). What are we really aiming for here? Theoretical fun, or something that's practical for most people so they don't need to trawl through the lists of all available modifiers. Maybe both? (this is what I would aim for) --Melon 15:19, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
            • Indenting forthewin. For the record, the thread Melon mentions is here. When I say "price," I don't necessarily meant "how much to buy in the mall." I'd be referring to rolling everything into one sort of "price of effort" number into a superscript/colour. I.e., item/skill/effect X is trivial to get (no superscript/colour), takes days to get (first level signal), weeks, months/very difficult/impossible. So BM/HCO ascensions take about weeks/a month, getting Olfaction/hound dog would take months, nabbing a semi-rare is trivial, etc. Mr. As could be valued at about a month of farming.

              As for theoretical fun vs. practicality, I've seen people quote the maximum before, so that would be nice to be able to read out straight from the page. I know from talk pages that in the past, folks have used the player classifications to drill down to the best item in their "price range," so actual usability is also desirable. It does save the effort of going through the complete item lists and building an outfit from scratch. --Bagatelle 20:44, 8 September 2008 (CDT)
  • Okay, the nested tables are excellent and I'm kicking myself for not thinking of them. That said, while all this color-coding or superscripts stuff would be nice, I think just the plain nested tables at least would be a huge improvement over what we have now, and such categorization is easy enough to add after the fact, and this discussion has gone on pretty long already; is anyone opposed to settling on the nested table aspect so we can begin updating pages so they aren't seen by the forums as "useless"? The only things I think need to be settled before we can do that are where to stop (once we get down to an item that can be acquired in a single day, either by adventuring for it directly or farming for a day to buy it, would be my vote) and how to handle outfits, but where to stop is pretty simple to adjust and outfits can also be added in (they're rarely the best option anyway, with the notable exception of the bounty gear) later. I just think actually starting some work on this will get more visibility towards the effort and help resolve these remaining issues mrore quickly.--Salien 08:48, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
    • What I might do is start creating the tables for the other pages on my user page for now, so that it moves along while we all argue over the specifics. Please note that the one on my user page so far was only created as an example and lots of small details need working out, but once the hard graft of sticking all the items on it has been done, changing the details is really quick. Maybe we could stop adding items to the lists once the table gets too big? There doesn't seem to be any need to cull the small ones like +ML and +initiative, but the huge ones like +item would become stupidly large if we stuck everything on it. Another major problem is that because effects stack, those lists would be really large for most of the pages but it doesn't seem right to ignore most of the effects.--Melon 12:44, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
      • Judging from previous comments, I think we can safely assume that there's a lot of support for the table/list format like Melon's suggesting. The stuff we're kind of stuck on is what no one's been commenting on (it seems like it's the same four or five people suggesting things). Perhaps we should compile of list of unresolved issues and suggested solutions with pros/cons and then announce a "vote" on the main banner? On listing all the effects, listing all of them is kind of the way it's always been, but as more stuff gets added to the game, maybe it's just a headache to add everything to six billion pages. Perhaps less "maximising" and more "showing what a reasonable person would spend," and send people to the mechanics lists if they really want to pile everything on? --Bagatelle 02:20, 23 September 2008 (UTC)

Really Final Consensus on Everything

OK, this has gone on long enough, I think it's time to nail down the specifics so we can start updating the pages, especially now that people are adding the Disembodied Hand to the current pages. For those unaware of the current proposal, the current tables will be replaced with ones of a similar format to those shown here. As soon as we can settle on the specifics, we can start introducing these new tables! I've thought up some stuff that I think are the main issues that still need to be resolved, so here goes:

(All following sections by Melon 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC))

What Shouldn't be Included on the tables?

The current pages that list all modifiers are probably more useful to someone trying to put on every available buff for as much tiny gain as they can get. For most people, this is unnecessary. As we don't want the tables to get too big, we need to draw the line somewhere on what isn't useful enough to consider using. The Monster Level table has loads of items that all grant roughly the same bonus, and as they all involve Knob Shaft ores, they're all about as easy to get as each other. So do we really need to mention them all? Should we try to group things together when necessary to reduce clutter? Here's how I feel about it:

  • Custom items shouldn't be included, nor should items that are no longer attainable to new players (like St. Sneaky Pete's day stuff, but they're currently on my example tables. They're never optimal anyway).
  • Group similar items together whenever we can. On the +item drops table I've condensed the Island War reward medals into one group rather than list them all, but this grouping might reduce clarity somewhat.
  • Really really small buffs. As an example, there are some +item buffs that grant about 5% to item drops, so I haven't bothered to include them to reduce the size of the table. They pale in comparison to the heavier buffs, which should be more than enough for most cases.
  • When the tables get too big, maybe some rubbish equipment should be culled from the tables further? It would be nice to keep stuff of all ranges on the table so that players in hardcore at various levels can see what's best for them at that level, but as more and more stuff gets added it could get messy. We need to lay down some guidelines on how we decide when too much stuff is on the tables, and what should be removed when this situation arises. Melon 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
With collapsing groups, some cases could be handled by linking to the summary pages of the item class, like how Dungeons of Doom potion/{{War Rewards}} show things. I can get behind not showing unattainable items. As for guidelines on when to cull, maybe list the top x items for each colour code? In the case of stat modifiers, maybe do separate absolute and percent listings. --BagatelleT/C 00:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Categories

Currently, some items are colour-coded into groups that I pulled out of my ass, to give a quick idea of the availability of some of the items. If we're not going to bother with totally unobtainable stuff, we can drop that category. The colours for the categories was also pulled out of my ass, but similar categories should probably be given similar colours, maybe lighter/darker shades of the same colour. Here's my proposals:

  • Ultra rares and Grimacite get their own category. Perhaps semi-rares and island war hero stuff could be filed under a "less rare but still rare" category.
  • Mr. Store items don't really need to be categorized separately from other items that "no longer drop", but I personally feel this is a bit more fun.
  • I think non-tradables and clan dungeon non-tradables warrant separate categorization. Maybe as lighter/darker shades of a general "non-tradable" group.
  • Should buffs also be categorized in a similar way? Should feathers obtained from the llama gongs be considered "Mr. Store" buffs (if we keep that category) as they are only available in hardcore/ronin if you have the right Mr. Store equipment? Same goes for snowcone and candy heart buffs, for example. Similarly, the panty-raider +init buff is derived from a hero drop, so should it be categorized under the "less rare" category? Melon 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I think buffs should be categorised somehow. There are some really old trader items that no-one in their right mind would use (powdered toad horn). I don't know if a hardcore-only version of the tables would be used by very many people--do folks actually go around trying to maximise things in HC or ronin? My own playstyle would be to use whatever's at hand or easy to get instead of spending turns trying to max out. There's always the full effects lists if I care that much. Thoughts on putting stat requirements on there? --BagatelleT/C 00:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Item and Meat Tables + Familiars = AARGG!

These two are a bit of a nightmare because unlike the elemental resistance tables, equipment that raises familiar weight is actually worth considering, and thanks to diminishing returns on familiar effects, we can't nail down any specifics on how much it helps. To prevent the buffs section from becoming overly massive due to having both standard and familiar weight buffs, I've split these into two separate sections. I've then added a list of how much effect your familiar gives from each weight so that people can quickly and easily work it out for themselves. The tables are moved from a 5x2 to a 4x3 layout instead, but it's much nicer looking. Melon 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It's possible to calculate which is best in choosing +weight or +effect, just really, really tedious, as we'd have to do part-by-part equipment comparisons. I think the way you've handled it there may be the way to go in the name of saving headaches. --BagatelleT/C 00:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Showing What's the Best

The current system falls down flat here. The previous tables were great because it was really easy to see what was the best outfit for a certain occasion. Thanks to the El Vibrato outfit, Bounty Hunter and Hodgman outfits (maybe a few others too), it can be really hard to show how much some outfits compare to the alternatives. Trying to add in all the outfit pieces which would otherwise be useless and trying to note this on each item clutters up the tables incredibly quickly. Maybe we should move outfit comparison to a separate table, maybe in the notes section? I think the comparisons need to be noted somewhere, but I'm not really sure about the best way to go about this. The meat and item tables are complicated further by the +weight stuff. I don't know what we're going to do about them.

On a similar note, I've currently got a sentence at the end of each table stating what the very maximum is, and a separate figure for a maximum without any items that are specially colour coded. The previous system had 5 categories and showed figures for each. Maybe we could do something similar, showing figures and set-up for certain things, such as "no colour coded items" or "including all but ultra-rares" or whatever. Melon 19:05, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

If we're not going to show outfits in-line, then perhaps we can footnote "items x, y, z can be swapped out for outfit w for a delta of v" instead. Showing the absolute best may be kind of a headache if we're not going to explicitly list every effect and magnitude, though... maybe we should drop it? --BagatelleT/C 00:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)


How about outfits, as well as being listed seperately, list each item as a fraction of it's outfit effect, eg item harvesting: outfits:

  • bhh outfit 15%, (3 items)

hats:

  • bounty hunting helmet 25%,
  • bounty hunting helmet as part of outfit 30%

It's not perfect, but if does give an idea of how much you are gaining per slot.(yes I know some slots have more powerful items than others)Teffania

I still think it would be good to show the "optimum" outfit on the top of the page, and then let people see what they can substitute in. But apart from that, great work guys :) --Jz 16:57, 23 November 2008 (UTC)

Originally from User talk:Melon

I've changed the color for "Other non-tradables" from #99FF99 to #BBFFBB to make it a bit easier to distinguish from Clan Dungeon items - they were a bit too similar otherwise. I've also updated its usage on Maximizing Monster Level for now, though it might also be a good idea to examine the colors more carefully to make them less difficult to read (currently, the dark red for ultra-rares/Grimacite and the dark blue for Mr. Store items are really dark). --Quietust (t|c) 15:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

  • OK. I wanted to make it so that similar categories were the same colour but different shades, but it was tough to find a set of colours that went well with blue/red links and were different enough from each other. I guess I'll have another stab at making a nicer colour. --Melon 15:44, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
  • So this is your project? Please do something about the outfits, like a chart with special outfits compared to mr. store stuff, so we can see which is better, and marginal benefit. Squirming like a toad is pretty much the definition of a rubbish buff, so please don't use it, and the elemental chart needs the rest of the familiar buffs, but not that one. Mar 17:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
    • Well it's not strictly my project, but I'm going ahead and doing the proposed re-write because it wasn't going anywhere. Part of the aim of these pages was to stop grouping people into arbitrary categories (which were never accurate) and help them work out what's best for them given what they have. Outfits probably do need some work in clarifying what's what, but we're still undecided. Go to the Dressing for Success talk page if you want to join in the discussion there. However I agree that maybe some clarification so people can see if, for example, the bounty hunter gear is better than something else would be good, but again, this isn't really the best place to discuss that. Finally, if you're looking at the elemental resistance tables on my page here, EVERY familiar weight buff is already included, so I'm not sure what buffs you're talking about there. (unless you're talking about equipment, in which case read the note just above the tables) --Melon 17:53, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
    • To Mar: Who are you to decide that Squirming Like a Toad is a "rubbish buff"? It boosts familiar weight just like any other familiar weight effect, thus it increases item drops when you're using a fairy. The fact that it's expensive should be evident from the fact that it's highlighted as "Other limited time content" (i.e. stuff which can be traded but no longer drops, meaning it'll only get more and more expensive). --Quietust (t|c) 19:38, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
      • Also, in general, is it really worth it to list all familiar weight buffs on the Maximizing Item Drops page, as opposed to simply linking to Maximizing Familiar Weight? After all, whatever list we come up with will be 100% duplicated on the page for Maximizing Meat Drops. --Quietust (t|c) 19:41, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
        • Heh, I can see that all this discussion is going to end up here now :p Anyway, there currently isn't a "Maximising Familiar Weight" page, but I actually made a table for it on my user page to help when making the meat and item pages. The other problem with just linking to it is that it might make it a bit harder to determine when it's better to wear +weight over straight +item/whatever as you'd need to keep flipping between pages to work it out. On the other hand, we need to update loads of DfS pages every time a new weight modifier gets released as it is currently. These pages that take familiar weight into account are a bit of a nightmare. --Melon 19:52, 15 October 2008 (UTC)
          • Familiar weight table = template = problem solved. This sort of stuff belongs better on the project talk so Imma copying it right... now... --BagatelleT/C 02:07, 16 October 2008 (UTC)
          • One thing that might help significantly on the Meat/Items pages would be to list the familiar bonuses incrementally - that is, list each weight and indicate how much of an increase you get from the next 5 or 10 pounds. A baseline of 20 pounds would probably be a safe assumption in these situations. --Quietust (t|c) 02:12, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Hobopolis Marketplace stuff

Ok so theres a fair bit of discussion around the Hobopolis clan loot stuff, what about items obtained from the Hobopolis Marketplace? Is this to be included, and if so, where? The high amount of hobo nickels required and the non-tradable status may mean it is viable only for the highest levels. For example the shapeless wide-brimmed hat is more effective at MP regeneration than the plexiglass pith helmet, which is currently the one claimed to be the best.

Sorry if this is already mentioned, but I did a scan and couldn't find any mention of this elsewhere in this discussion thread.--DarkHyth 07:06, 31 July 2008 (CDT)

Disco Combat Skills

I think that Disco Combat Skills should be added to game mechanics, as well as a Maximizing your Disco Combat Skill Damage and Bonus Disco Combat Skill Damage pages. There are several items that modify this damage. I will make the page, and someone who knows how could possibly put it on the Maximizing and Modifiers lists. --Larryboy 20:51, 1 August 2008 (CDT)

Dressing For Distress

I'm not sure about anyone else, but I would like to see how one would get the most negative score modifiers to each of the Dress for Success lists. Furry suit type modifiers. --Kosher le pesach 09:00, 8 August 2008 (CDT)

Higher Stats?

One of the helpful uses of the Dressing for Success pages is to help to survive the deadly levels of Fernswarthy's Basement. However, the pages use a simple 150 as a player's stat. Basement divers need up to a thousand in their stat to survive deep levels. Perhaps we should try to make some interactive Excel document that allows you to input your stats? Just an idea.--Larryboy 18:30, 2 September 2008 (CDT)

I'm not sure how exactly a wiki works but I'm going to assume there is no simple way to create forms. If there were we could create a simple program where player inputs their X stat and we spit out the calculations based on that stat. --Uberferret 21:28, 2 September 2008 (CDT)

I suppose this could work if you "taught" the Excel thing every piece of equipment. --Wavedash 14:41, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

The wiki can do anything a computer can do if you install the right extension. There's a bunch of them here. That would be nice.

a useful continuum

I don't think the player categorizations are that helpful and for this reason I stopped using the Dressing for Success pages many moons ago. The items should just be arranged in a complete list in order of usefulness. Then, a player thinks "what's the best X for goal Y?" and the Goal Y page has a complete hierarchical list for each equipment slot (hat, shirt, pants, etc.). If you have this Best Item, use it. If not, use this next best item. If not, the next one, and on down to the lowliest. New items just get stuck in at their level of the hierachy when introduced. A second section would be for buffs, outfits, and effects.

I agree with this completely. This would be much more useful than the different categories, which, like it or not, will always have some completely arbitrary differences from page to page. This is particularly true as time passes and one-time items become more rare relative to the total player population. For example, consider the Time Trappings outfit pieces. When they first came out, You could probably categorize the entire outfit as something an Ascender could have, where now a single piece will fill the entire equipment cost guideline for a Villa player. It would be much easier to just have an objective list of best to worst equipment for each equip slot (with a distinction between 2 handed weapons v. 1 handed/off hand), and any anomalies explained in a notes section.--Stufff 07:00, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Archiving

Now that the revamp has just begun, does anyone have anything against me archiving this page? Most of the talk in here is about issues that are no longer relevant. Besides, we'll then have a fresh clean page to discuss the myriad of tweaks the new system will need :p --Melon 19:34, 15 October 2008 (UTC)

I've finished converting the final Dressing page into the new format, and adding in new/hobopolis gear when I remembered that it did something relevant. Let the tweaking begin! --Babyscarface 03:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Minor tweaks

"Ultra rares and Grimacite - Tradable and still drop, but rare" - Grimacite no longer drops, so that needs updating. Don't think it needs a new colour though. --Nossidge 16:58, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

  • It should probably be merged into the same category as Mr. Store items, but preferably with a different color. The old Radio KoL gear would also belong in this category, assuming it is best for anything. The "ultra rares" category should probably also include the new Radio KoL gear, considering its rarity. --Quietust (t|c) 19:06, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

Where would the new-ish depleted Grimacite items go? Does it go with the other regular Grimacite items? Tradable but still drop, or tradable and no-longer drop? The items themselves can still be made of course, but as yet, there is no new source of depleted Grimacite (except for smashing other depleted Grimacite items) so it is a little odd. --Sparksol (t|c) 02:46, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm thinking it might be best to have the Ultra-rare category cover current raffle house prizes, ultra rares, and current Radio KoL gear. The old grimacite really should be moved to the limited time content category (I might do that now). The current raffle house grimacite is a bit odd because once it leaves people can still technically make it. I'm wondering about items like the LWA ring, which despite being limited time AND non-tradable is still obtainable. --Melon 22:24, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

Hodgman Outfit Effect: Summon Hobo Underling

In all of this everyone is overlooking the Summon Hobo Underling skill. You can summon a Hobo underling if you have the full Hodgman outfit on. Two of those choices increase meat and item drops. Those should be added on to the table as well.

Really inappropriate complaining

First off, I realise that this is almost certainly not the place to lodge a general complaint. If someone could drop me a line on my talk page as to where to take it then I happily will. Secondly... Dear god! The Dressing for Success pages are almost completely unreadable! I mean, the debate as to change them or not was mostly unreadable, but do people really think the new pages are better? Really? The old pages were kinda inaccurate and outdated, but jeez - you could at least use them to get a quick glance at what you might like to wear. Now it's an incomplete list of things you might want to use in a jumbled eyesore. I know the time for debate has passed (and again, if someone would be kind enough to point me where it is that I should be suggesting changes), but couldn't the pages have been revamped less drastically? Like (say) keeping the layout the same but colour coding the new categories of untradeable items etc? The new pages look like a wiki-editors dream, but they seem horribly impractical to me (a simple end user). I would suggest that those most interested in the debate to change the pages were those who used the pages least - while us simpletons who do use the pages got shafted by complex looking debating. Thirdly, a very big THANK YOU to everyone editing the wiki and thinking up improvements like this. I know this is a lot of criticism, but I appreciate how much work must go into a revamp like this and I don't want to seem ungrateful when highlighting what I (personally) see as flaws in the system. --JohnDoe244 22:23, 25 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks very much for the input, it's not inappropriate. I would say this was the best place for a complaint, so no worries there. One of the major problems with the old system was the inaccuracy of the categories. It's extremely doubtful that anyone actually fit into any of them, but adding more categories wasn't practical. Most people sat somewhere between different categories but many of the more involved pages such as the Items Drops or Meat Drops couldn't show anyone reasonable alternatives, but this wasn't as much of a problem until all the Hobopolis gear came out, which is what caused the re-write. The Hodgman outfit in particular started replacing other reasonable alternatives that would have been lost, and a portion of the playerbase that couldn't get into Hobopolis would have suffered as a result. The categories also assumed that someone that fit into one category was capable of getting everything from that category, which just wasn't true at all. In all honesty, I never felt that the previous pages were useful at all to anyone. I felt most people weren't maximising if they followed the categories, which is why I supported this change.
As an example, anyone who fit into the "Can get Mr. Store stuff" category had a maypole as their familiar equipment. Most of the playerbase were better off with a Plastic Pumpkin Bucket because the maypole wasn't an option, but the old category system couldn't show this. I would imagine that most people know what items they would consider getting or what they have, and so this new design is meant to let them tell at a glance what combination of the gear available to them is best for them. The colour coding is meant to briefly show how available the item is if they're thinking of getting it, and all items are arranged "Best first" by equipment slot, so players can easily and quickly scroll down until they find one that suits them, one equipment slot at a time. I'll agree that the Items page in particular appears as a bit of a mess in the middle, but that's because no-one's really been able to decide on what is a reasonable grounds for not including something into the table, so almost everything is being put in there as a result at the moment. Outfit effects also suffer somewhat, but there's not so much of an easy alternative for that without really confusing the table.
If you have any suggestions for improvements I'll be happy to hear them. Outfit effects aside (which are a problem), I think a lot of people aren't understanding how to read the pages correctly because I personally think this design is outstandingly more useful, but then again I would think that :p --Melon 02:37, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

"Dear God!" was my exact reaction as well. The idea behind this revamp is good... the old pages were useless, and the categories pointless. Listing the best few items for each slot is definitely the way to go.

But! The actual presentation is terrible. Why are we using tables within tables? At a minimum the effects need to be stripped and out listed separately, along with the means used to obtain them. I'd personally prefer to not have all the different categories in parallel... I don't think it would take up that much more space to list them sequentially, since most of the long item names take up about 3-4× as many lines anyway. I realize I'm coming in late to the party, as it were (school has been much more time-consuming lately)... I'll try to make a mock-up of what I have in mind. --Starwed 07:25, 29 December 2008 (UTC)

I have a half-complete mock-up of an example page: User:Starwed/Max_Moxie. --Starwed 09:02, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Hey, neat layout. The sectionised headings and templating the colours will make it a lot easier to update the page. --BagatelleT/C 17:28, 29 December 2008 (UTC)
Unfortunately to get the layout right I ended up having to embed the headings inside the table, which totally breaks the edit preview.
I have to say I'd prefer a simpler category scheme, maybe just 3. (Obtaining an item is easy/difficult/demigod.) Effects should be categorized separately. It would also probably be useful to denote items which have high prereqs. But right now I'd mostly prefer that the pages be more legible! (Anyone who thinks they look ok hasn't looked at them on a low resolution laptop screen)--Starwed 00:51, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I imagine your concern about "categories" comes primarily from color coding all of the things. Something which can be made a lot easier by using color names, rather than hex codes; much easier if we add some things to the wiki's css. And I'd prefer the table make better use of css, inheritable properties, and have less redundancy, on technical matters. Instead of definining the same background color in each cell, just define the background color for the row, for example. In particular, this makes adding definitions to the wiki's css files even better, since then you can just define a row to be a certain class and not have to worry about anything else. I also dislike the cell spacing between an item and its bonus. This is also easily removed by using CSS. Even more easily with adding things to the wiki's css. Well, assuming you can ever get someone to get around to that.

As for having section headers in the table, you need to make the tables lie inside of floating divs, instead of imbedding them in another table. See what I've done at the Sandbox. This will make the previews functional. Maybe add some html comments before div declarations so editors know what they do (and not to remove them). --Flargen 01:47, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I was concerned about categories more because they seem over-detailed, drawing distinctions that few looking at the page would care about.
FWIW I actually preferred the look of the spacing between cells. For some reason I was thinking that setting it for the entire row set the color of the space as well, but I was just wrong about that.  :)
Using CSS for the layout can be tricky. On my laptop, in your mockup, the third column is rendered beneath the other two. (probaby because of the resolution.) It's also not as easy to produce the exact layout I was shooting for, which is the right/left columns flush against the sides of the page, with the middle column ~half-way between them. Eh, this isn't something I'm overly concerned about... it's relatively easy to change, as long as we use templates and CSS intelligently. (Btw, I think I can add new CSS classes myself, using regular admin powers?)
More of an issue is what to do with the effects. With equipment you have to make a choice: what is the best item for this slot? With effects, there's no competition, it just becomes a matter of whether it is worth the meat or not. Maybe split effects into three separate lists, like: Cheap, Expensive, and Limited.--Starwed 07:04, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
I wasn't particularly aware that you were an admin, actually. I don't know if you need more than normal admin access to edit the site css, but you can always try when you've got something you want to add.
The div columns not working out is probably an issue of how various browsers render floats. Which browser are you using? I'm on opera 10 alpha. The widths are all defined in terms of percentiles, but I think some browsers may have trouble with floating widths that aren't in px or em. The percentiles for the columns only add up to 90%, and there's only a handful of em's worth of margin padding in there. So I wouldn't think it is a resolution issue. Can you increase your resolution temporarily to see if it goes away, just to check? Using floats is the only way I can think of that'll keep the previews relatively correct; although I think there will be an issue with an unclosed div tag in the first two columns' preview, but an HTML comment can be added about that. And, for what's it worth, on my screen the layout is exactly what you wanted (albeit with a 1em margin on the left and right, which can easily be removed; I just got lazy in defining the margins).
And as for your effects comment, the vagaries of costs and things like "cheap, expensive, limited" is precisely the kind of issue that the new format was meant to get away from. These things are subject to relative wealth and risk evaluations, as well as market fluctuations. All Jick has to do is throw in some new thing where you have to turn in a bunch of some item that otherwise gives a cheap buff for the price of that item to skyrocket (making the buff go from "cheap" to "expensive" overnight). The current categorizations are intended to be largely immune to Jick's attempts to screw with us. I'm sure he'll find a way to mess things up anyway, but it should be a little harder at least. The previous methodology constantly suffered from inflation issues. Old Mr. Store items would suddenly inflate by several million and go outside the range of first ascender and then villa. We'd have to change the tables to accomodate for this alteration, and back then that meant 5 or 6 changes across multiple pages because of a single item's price change. And when Hobopolis came out (none of whose items were usable under old guidelines due to stat requirement limitations, and many of which had no readily attributed "cost") and the inflation burst hit the entire rares market, things got really screwy and a change in methodology was initiated.
Oh, and one other thing: the vertical-align property of css is, to my great annoyance, not an inheritable property. So you have to set it for every element you want vertically aligned. Or use the "valign" property (one of the few cases where I find the non-css declaration acceptable). Your current mark-up for the Max Moxie example doesn't consistently vertically align the headers, for example. --Flargen 14:37, 30 December 2008 (UTC)
Oh, yeah, and the little space between the item and the bonus is part of the border for the (table column) element. By default, borders are separated (and also transparent), resulting in that little bit of white space. It can be removed by adjusting border properties appropriately. Setting the parent div I used to have the style "border-collapse: collapse" would do it, for example (this property is inherited, unlike most css border properties). Or adding it to the tables, instead (if you want different border behavior amongst the divs themselves), or just changing the border-X properties of the relevant table cells. The deprecated cellspacing property can control that bit of space, too. --Flargen 14:46, 30 December 2008 (UTC)

Underwater Page

I'm thinking about doing some underwater adventuring soon and I love these Dressing For Success pages, so I thought one for Underwater things might be helpful. I started a rough draft at Maximizing Your Underwater Success. I've only included pressure reduction so far, but it's kinda empty so I'm thinking adding equipment/effects that has other underwater-only effects (+meat, +items, familiar weight, etc.). I think this page would be nice to have, but do others think it's unnecessary? --RttlesnkeWhiskey 01:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Not right now, given that just about everything on that page is on Underwater adventuring. It's just not that complex yet.--Toffile 02:08, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Uncle Hobo Gear

The Uncle Hobo gear doesn't fit into the established color categories. It is both no longer obtainable and untradable. Right now it's in the same category as the standard Hobopolis gear, which is potentially confusing. Do we want to add a new color just for those 6 items? --Tainted Food Product 20:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

  • How about
Legend
Ultra rares and Raffle House/Radio prizes Tradable and still obtainable, but rare
Semi-rares and war hero drops
Mr. Store items Tradable, but no longer obtainable
Other limited time content
Clan Dungeon non-tradables Untradable, but still obtainable
Other non-tradables
Uncle Hobo drops Untradable, and no longer obtainable
* Single-equip accessory or two-handed weapon

this. ----Icon315♕ (|) 21:21, 1 January 2011 (UTC)


That shows up pretty light on my screen, at first I thought you had just left it white. Maybe closer to #FFFF80?

Uncle Hobo drops Untradable, and no longer obtainable

--Tainted Food Product 21:57, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

BHY-Equipment

So meanwhile we learned that the option to do BHY-runs didn't disappear after August 14. Now the question is: Should honeybritches, honeycap and honey dipper marked as untradable? Since the actual source (handful of honey) is tradable I propose to mark them as tradable for Maximizing Your... purposes. After all players who look into this item-lists are interested mainly on the availability to them right now. While a BHY ascension would be necessary for someone to make the items available, it's not comparable to stainless steel or brimstone items. Items made from paperclips are untradable as well, but can still be bought in high numbers from the mall and thus were suitably marked as Other limited time content. I propose we mark the honey-equipment white/blank, as the regular obtainable items that they actually are. --Yatsufusa 09:23, 10 September 2011 (CEST)

  • They're marked as untradable, but still available, because they are untradeable, but still available. Paperclip and Bark outfits were marked Other Limited Time Content, not because of their availability in the mall, but because it was part of other limited time content (you can't get it in-run). Moonthril, Double-Ice, Sugar, Game Grid, and Pen Pal items are marked Mr. Store, because they're Mr. Store derivatives. Despite the Mr. Store category saying "no longer available", the parts that make them are being created every day, and will be available even after bark and paperclips disappear from the mall. Point is, the honey outfit is fine in that category--Erich 11:06, 10 September 2011 (CEST)

Page categorization

Is there a reason why this and all "Maximizing Your ..." pages are categorized as world events? --Octagon8 12:39, 3 March 2012 (CET)

Thanks for pointing that out. Someone accidentally categorized the Legend template as an event when trying to link to it, and that in turn categorized any page it appeared on. Fixed! --timrem 00:40, 8 March 2012 (CET)