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Hope I'm not breaking the rules by putting this at the top, but it's kind of important. 5/17's update made a good bit of this obsolete, so we need to decide what to do about it. I'd move this to a "cannot be verified" page and start a new one, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes by doing something like that on my own. --Sel Ibrix 14:09, 17 May 2011 (UTC)


I apologise if i'm adding this completely out of order, as i've never posted in a wiki before. But i can confirm that a hardcore perming of a skill does not need to be obtained in the current run. I completed a softcore run as a Pastamancer and the option to make Advanced Cocktailcrafting (DB skill) hardcore permanent appears. Screenie here--Chizxa 06:24, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

I can confirm this too. My previous ascension was a softcore AT run. When I ascended, I upgraded Mad Looting Skills to hardcore permanent (I already had it softcore permed from a previous run). --Mechald 14:11, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Actually, the question reworded better is: "If you do not purchase a skill of (strictly) your class during your hardcore run, can you make it a permanent skill during ascension?" The answer is no. Proof. I did not buy the Psalm of Pointiness, The Sonata of Sneakiness, Carlweather's Cantata of Confrontation, or Ur-Kel's Aria of Annoyance. Therefore, skills you do not purchase during that hardcore run do not become available for permanency. --Eliasar 17:03, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

    • No. That's not strictly true. You can hardcore perm skills that you've already softcore permed...without having to rebuy them from a trainer. You have to recall your ancestral memories from the account menu. This also holds for skillbooks as well.--Toffile 17:48, 17 June 2011 (UTC)


According to Makarina (#1032424) on the KoL forums, the secret is to not use a clover in Hardcore.--Osrisa 23:57, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Should be noted as *in hardcore* on the wiki page if true, also somehow I seriously doubt you lose your skills and familiars altogether, did the editor mean *during the run* like is normally the case with restrictions? I dont think there would be a way to throw away tons of donation-requiring familiars, it would cut down on donations. EDIT: having read the description, I'm essentially positive that the page should read no familiars or permed skills *during* the run. -- Davydd 13 July 2007

  • Unfortunately, while that seems obvious, we cannot change the Wiki until it's been proven. That's how the Wiki works. When someone completes their first Bad Moon run, they'll be able to tell us all about what happens at the end, but until then, we can only go by what we see. --Clackling 08:51, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

While it cannot technically be confirmed that you get everything back at the end of your run (skills + familiers) I do suggest someone adds it to the wiki anyways and states that this is just a theory at the moment and will be confirmed/denied when someone finishes a bad moon run --Alhanna 14:26, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Does the no clover thing include getting the Big Rock and making Green Beer ? --Discotoon 08:00, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

  • I don't know about green beer, but definitely getting the Big Rock, since, well, it uses a clover in an adventure. --Clackling 08:51, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Stupid question: does clicking the 'use' button under a clover (i.e. to disassemble it) violate this? If it does I'm going to cry, if not the explanation should be reworded slightly. --Calair 01:38, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

  • Clickin the 'use' button does not violate the requirement. In fact, you can even adventure with it assembled in areas that do not have clover adventures and still unlock bad moon. I too was worried but fortunately it's not an issue. --Lucasw 09:02, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

Bad Moon Unlocked

Just FYI, Moldar (#46441) is in Bad Moon. It shows up under his Zodiac sign, and he shows as in Hardcore normally otherwise. This lends credence to the Zodiac theories, perhaps. --rholliday 13:39, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

  • Just want to point out that looking at his previous ascension, that it matches my current theory of ascending in Hard Core under an Off Moon (He ascended as an Accordion Thief with a muscle Moon.) Theory is near the bottom of this page if you want to see it and try to test it. (Do a find on Off Moon.) --Golianor 14:20, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Confirm Denys on the Hardercore accesibility theorys are a priority to both access this asscension type, this leaderboard, and for general tidyness purposes on an already crowded page.--Zafoquat 16:33, 26 June 2007 (CDT)

"Really, Really One Time" Adventures Repeating?

I have a question about "Really, Really One Time" adventures. I have a multi that is on his third run (hardcore, no path) and he started playing after December 5, 2005. Today he recieved "shiny pebbles" which contradicts what this wiki page says. Has anyone else seen this? --Kjacobso 19:39, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

  • My own main was created in 2004. I hd of course done the ENTIRE Toot Oriole quest long, long ago ... and had been inactive for over a year. Well, this August, I returned to KOL (and only had a character to return to, thanks to having donated for a Mr. A) ... and had to do the Toot Oriole quest all over again. Might not be the same thing ... might be related ... I dunno; better minds than mine will have to figure it out. --Bork 20:38, 28 September 2006 (CDT)
    • My account was also created in 2004. You did a different Toot Oriole Quest made in 2005 or 2006, which is why it reopened. (it reopened for everyone else) I realise this is very late answering. ;)--Aprocalypse 22:57, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Hope this helps. Someone add some color to it or something. =) Tuffy

  • Looks good. --Snickles 18:40, 25 May 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

- I just made major revisions to this page to clarify things that have changed since it was written, make things more concise, and of course point out that Ascension is now implemented rather than still in design phases. (What can I say, all that out-of-date info bothered me.  ;)) There are likely to be a large number of grammatical issues where I deleted a line and left a sentence fragment or similarily screwed something up. There may be inaccuracies and/or omissions due to either ignorance or oversight on my part. Please review the new page (I've re-written enough of it that the change comparison is probably useless) and make changes/reversions as you see fit. Oh, also, I wasn't sure how to do a category, but I wonder if the Paths section I added should be replaced with a category of its own similar to the one the zodiac signs have now. GreenArmadillo, 6 PM EST 6/16/05

- Newbie here, reading to learn about Ascension for the first time. One thing needs clarification: there should be some mention of the Ronin phase in the Items section. In other words, I have the following questions (even after reading this wonderful guide): Do the rules mentioned in the Items section, especially rules about storage, apply during the Ronin period alone, or forever? Is there a difference in the duration of these rules depending on one's softcore or hardcore decision? Lurking, 19 Jun 2005

- Just wondering what determines the gem obtained from King Ralph. I got a porqoise gem. I was turtle tamer, reincarnated as sauceror under opposum sign. Who knows, maybe it's just random. Umlaut, 29 Jun 2005

  • I believe evidence points to gem distribution being random. --Snickles 12:59, 29 Jun 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

- I have read a lot about speed ascending in 3 days and once saw something about needing to complete it in 21 days. Is there actually a limit on how many days you can take to ascend? Or can you take as long as you want? Another newbie question, sorry! --corhub 14:20, 01 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

  • There is in fact no maximum time limit for Ascension. Take my own character Bork: I opened the character in June of 2004. I played him for a few months, but ... there wasn't any such thing as Ascension then. I got bored, and left ... for two years! When I came back in August of 2006, before the ned of that month, I managed to Ascend for the first time. Obviously, if I was able to ascend after over two years ... either there's no limit, or it's such a large span of time as to render the limit entirely academic, anyway. --Bork 20:34, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
  • I added some imagery and removed some redundant lines. Also, I'm pretty sure there is no time limit to ascend, hard or soft. peace -Pastamancer5
  • Everyone now has MCDs, right? So could you just have to keep your version of the MCD at a certain stage(probably either off or ten) for the whole length of your run? --CluckyB 16:43, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

shore trip

it says here that the shore trip counter is reset with ascension, but under the trophies section it is not

i mean, if it WAS reset, then someone would have to use 3000 turns on shore trips to get that trophy

that's not very likely in one ascension is it? not to mention the meat it would cost

if someone knows the answer, please correct the page, i would have done it myself, but i didn't know for sure

  • It most probably is reset. Why would it not reset? The trophy was implemented some while before ascencion when people didn't have much to do anyway so 3000 turns at the shore wasn't that much of a deal back then... And not the meat either... Winterbay 16th of July, 2006 20:46 (GMT-1)
    • It quite definitely is reset. You must do all 1000 trips within a single ascension. If it weren't reset, you could never get the dinghy plans again, since they only drop after your 5th shore trip. --Hellion 00:04, 23 July 2006 (CDT)


When you kill the king in hardcore you get all your skills back that you have softcore permed. However when you ascend you can only choose a skill that you got in that hardcore run. Maybe this should be added to the hardcore section to make it clear. -Darkness 17July2006

When you free King Ralph XI, you don't get any skills back. What are you talking about? --Someone Else 12:37, 16 July 2006 (CDT)

  • He's saying that when you free the King in a Hardcore ascension, you regain use of your Softcore Permanent skills - as if you were on a Normal, Pathless ascension again - but you can only make skills you have actually purchased with your current ascension Hardcore Permanent. A Seal Clubber cannot choose a Softcore Permanent skill such as Pastamastery to make into Hardcore Permanent, for example. --Katarani 23:44, 22 July 2006 (CDT)
    • If that's what he's saying, then he's wrong. You do not regain the use of your (P) skills when you free the king on a hardcore ascension; only your (HP) skills are available. --Hellion 00:02, 23 July 2006 (CDT)

•Shouldn't it be changed to reflect reality? Or can only the original poster change it? 'Cause it sure is wrong.Peterpancreas 17:17, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

•Well I corrected it to say: "Warning! You do not regain use of skills you have kept as softcore permanent after freeing King Ralph XI, and hence you cannot select any of those skills to keep as a hardcore permanent when you next ascend. It is impossible, for instance, to make Pulverize a softcore permanent, and then make it a hardcore permanent without completing a Hardcore ascension as a Seal Clubber."

My first big correction. Let me know if I did anything incorrectly.Peterpancreas 17:22, 5 August 2006 (CDT)

How could you complete an ascension without familiars??? Dont you need to use at least the reassembled blackbird to finish the new quest or in the tower?Then how is that a possiblity for "hardercore" -Kingmoron1(sorry if this is a N00b comment from a true n00b) 6/29/2007 20:46 EST

  • Using the reassembled blackbird is different, as no adventures are used in the process, as it flies away.

After you complete the Naughty Sorceress Quest and free King Ralph, all restrictions that apply only to Hardcore are lifted without penalty - even non-Hardcore-permanent skills. I just finished this quest and my only Non-HP skill was returned to me. --Mufus 15:00, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Ten-leaf clover

Hey, does anybody want to correct the rewards to say that you know get a ten-leaf clover on top of everything else. im afraid ill mess something up. --Hbsmiley7 00:15, 1 September 2006 (CDT)

You DON'T get a ten-leaf clover. You get a disassembled clover.

Ronin in Hardcore?

The article says all restrictions are lifted after freeing King Ralph in hardcore, but this KoL forum post implies otherwise. --Bagatelle 20:05, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

You have gotten confused - Ronin is not lifted, but HC is.--Jubbers 20:58, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

"Becomes" One-Time

Is there a list of adventures which are "one-time" only after they are defeated? Many of these are labeled in their Notes as "becomes a one-time adventure". Perhaps "Reoccurs Until Defeated" would be another useful sub-section of One-Time. Off the top of my head:

  • Copying the monolith to unlock the temple
  • Gaining spooky-gro fertilizer, until it's used (hm, maybe this depends on possessing the map, instead)
  • The choice adventures leading to Felonia
  • Baron von Ratsworth
  • The sub-bosses in the Cyrpt
  • The Oracle prior to the Dungeons of Doom
  • Izchak's Lighting Store

--Jonrock 13:51, 7 October 2006 (CDT)

  • oh, and, of course, any other Bosses.

--Jonrock 12:00, 8 October 2006 (CDT)


When does acension stop? I mean I'm thinking about becoming a OxyCore Sauceror but it would be nice to know when you're done with acension. Bassium!

Well, technically, your never really "done with" ascension. You can always just stop ascending, but the option of ascension is never closed off to you. The game is, in essence, an infinite loop of ascensions, as demonstrated by Bashy. I'm not sure exactly how many runs he's done, but it's well into the triple-digits.--Munkel (talk) 09:47, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

Before Going Beyond

Just ascended for the first time. Thought either this article or one related to Beyond the Pale might more strongly emphasize that those who plan to go softcore can/should do the following to prepare for reincarnation before going Beyond: use all adventures since they are "reset" to 80, use all food/drink/spleen items since fullness "resets" to zero, cook/mix all that you can to use up chef/bartender-in-the-box at your campground, have all campground-related items in inventory (especially a meat maid so you can pull it out of storage), untinker stuff to enable a easy meatcar construction, zap things until wand goes poof, stock your mall store, have 668 and 30669 scrolls, have an insanely spicy enchanted bean burrito, and have several good foods/drinks and at least 20k meat on hand. These tips may make ronin more bearable. If y'all agree, where would these tips belong (I will be happy to do it, I am just not familiar with the history of this wiki and the details behind the standards)? --clatra 23:15, 5 November 2006 (CST)

That would go on the Ascension Strategy page. Also, not all players should spend all their turns: those doing speedruns will want to have their ascension turncount as low as possible.--Jubbers 22:31, 6 November 2006 (CST)

Level 1 Ascension?

I was wondering, whether it would be possible to Ascend at level 1, by going to level 11, opening the astral gash, Adventuring in a drunken stupor to lose stats until level 1 and then going beyond the pail? --Clamy 19:51, 15 December 2006 (CST) •Come On, answer! Clamy 20:12, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Yes. There is a thread on the official forums about ascending with 0 stats. Gront 00:04, 23 February 2007 (CST)

One Time List

Might it be useful to have a comprehensive list somewhere of everything that one can accomplish only once per ascension, instead of just giving a few examples? --Baltar 16:50, 2 June 2007 (CDT)

Oh yes, yes. It would indeed. It should be a category, too. There was a thread on the forums a while back, but unfortunately forum search is currently disabled. It should really be under ascension strategy in the form of a checklist. Anyway, we can start now: Towel, Harold's bell, Dolphin King's map, Slug Lord's map, Dr. Hobo's map... Untinker meatcar, cook Daily Dungeon keys into pies... --Jatopian 19:55, 12 October 2007 (CDT)

Hardercore Idea

Can you choose NOT to take a moonsign when you ascend? Because if so, that seems like it would fit all five bullet point hints. No moon sign relates well to the name Bad Moon. Equal playing field would include no moon sign, so if that is the trigger, you would do it in a hardercore run. You almost certainly wouldn't do it in a normal run, unless you suspected it would give you access to something. You are abstaining from doing something (choosing a moon sign). And it generally wouldn't add any turns to a run. This is just a guess, but I'm putting it out here, because it'll be three or four weeks before I ascend again to try it out. Tiwaz 17:23, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Another possibility would be avoiding adventuring on stat days? --Calair 22:56, 1 July 2007 (CDT)

Looking at this from the flip side, Skully said that the part of the key to unlocking it was in how the Bad Moon runs are themed. Looking at the item list I notice a set of Brimstone items that no one has any information on. Could these be the Bad Moon ascension rewards and if so, I wonder if it could possibly have something to do with not getting the Friar skill which I think might be possible now. --iniquitous 10:50, 2 July (CDT)

  • A thought about themed runs. Since there are seven new passive skills (aka the seven deadly sins, might BM be a run that forces you to abide by them? If so, unlocking them migh be something that ties in to the skills/sins, e.g. eating yourself full every day and/or perming stomach of steel to get Gluttony, etc? Urian 22:40, 4 July 2007 (CET)

Yeah, the Brimstone stuff is looking good for Bad Moon rewards. A weapon, a hat, a pair of pants, and three things that look to be accessories. Fit's with the plexiglass and stainless steel sets in my opinion. Tiwaz 15:24, 2 July 2007 (CDT)

Has anyone thought that the way to open hardercore could be completeing an ascession without using a clover. If you think about it it should fit since the disease that you may need is dropped in another location. -- chunky_boo

Included are comments Mr. Skullhead made in the forum speculation thread for unlocking Bad Moon:

  • Something about the requirement being an ANTI-REQUIREMENT: i.e. Unlocking BM means NOT doing something.
  • What is required is not difficult to do... It shouldn't add any turns to a run to do it... It's not as hard as some of you were thinking (like, eat no food, or use no skills).
  • Don't kill me, but I did think of one place where fulfilling the requirement might add a few turns to your run.
  • The difficulty is in knowing what to do, and it's entirely possible that the first person to discover it will do so on accident. After that, though, it'll become common to see people doing it. It'll take a little fortune and a lot of lookin'.

That's my best attempt at it. --iniquitous 23:55, 2 July (CDT)

Not doing something that proves that you can do Bad Moon? Something that otherwise makes the run slightly easier? But not add any turns? Level the playing field? To me that says defeating the NS without wearing the Furry Suit. Not bringing her down to your level... --Phelyan 06:55, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

  • From what I've heard (though I haven't experienced it yet), the Furry Suit no longer works against her. Not sure what that means, only that it doesn't "work" anymore. --Clackling 07:16, 3 July 2007 (CDT)
    • NS attacck is no longer based on your buffed moxie. That's what it means. I think it's now based on your base moxie, but I'm not sure. --Killerrabbit 08:14, 3 July 2007 (CDT)
  • Plus, bad moon run = no clovering at gallery/bathroom/ballroom as much! :D BTW, does the unlockage have to be in Hardcore? I might spade a casualcore...--MrAndersonMan 07:37, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

Okay, apparently something connects Bad Moon type runs with Brimstone-type gear and the names of seven skills which are named after the seven deadly sins. Somehow this all sounds like it has a strong connection to Hey Deze. Perhaps it has something to do with the Friar's Gate. --Doppelheathen 22:33, 3 July 2007 (CDT)

I was just thinking that the brimstone gear is the reward for the Bad Moon run. From the looks of it there are 6 pieces, no one has them yet, and they all seem to follow the reward type of names. Also I think that the no clover idea does fit very well seeing how many people use them for meat and stats. If the clover thing doesn't work then there isn't much else that fits.--SkythAegi 09:29, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

I've read that you can fight the NS w/o the Wand of Nagmar after NS13 - has anyone done this, and if so, can they confirm whether or not they unlocked hardercore/bad moon? --Grimdel 14:56, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

Maybe not using stat days? (They said no extra turns.. they didn't say *anything* about extra days. =P. ) --Felgraf 00:12, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Maybe it has to do with not consuming steel reward from Azazel? I can kind of see how that would relate to the brimstone gear. Has anyone tried ascending without gettomg the liver/stomach/spleen of steel skill? --Willie Christ 2:40, 6 July 2007 (EPT)

  • D'oh. I just had the same idea. I've already started a new run to try that. --Sparksol 02:12, 6 July 2007 (CDT)

Call me crasy, but I don't think it has to do with clovers. You get a clover every ascension (tempting you?), and it just doesn't seem "mandatory" if you will. This seems like something that everyone has a chance to do, and almost always does it. I am thinking its the Bonerdagon's chest. Not using it. Everyone gets one, everyone uses it normally. It won't detract from a run much at all.--Phantamines 03:10, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

I'll be trying out the no steel organ idea next ascension (if noone beats me to it) and willpost if it unlocks hardercore (I'm going to try ascending without using any of the once-per-ascension quest rewards and not getting the organ)---GameWhino08:38 7, July, 2007 (central standard time)

What if it has to do with not sleeping/resting in an ascension? That seems fairly manageable to do, and would relate to the "Bad Moon" title.--Jeebles 21:10, 7 July 2007 (CDT)

  • I was thinking along similar but slightly different lines. Maybe its not making any improvements to your campsite over the course of an accension? I can definitely see someone doing that accidently. Stab594 09:37, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
  • What about the part of the level 11 quest that you do get beaten up on, there is no way to avoid that. --Chunky_boo 23:53, 7 July 2007 (CDT)
  • The no sleeping idea is really good, but even moderate level players don't sleep.--Phantamines 00:28, 8 July 2007 (CDT)
  • I just did a full, pure NS13 ascension (ascending the day it was released) up to now. I went the entire way without using clovers, even going so far as to avoiding using the clover for the NS area where you need to roll an 11. Also went to defeat the NS without a Wand of Nagamar equipped (although it still used the Wand, maybe because its in my inventory?). Only weapons I had was a black sword and a goatskin umbrella in my offhand. Regardless, I wasn't given the option for a "Bad Moon" run, only Casual, Normal and Hardcore.--esko 01:58, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Is ascending without using a familiar still being debated? I don't think you can even do it. You need the reassembled-blackbird, and those two 20lb familiars to get to the NS, so I can't see it working at all. -Willie Christ 19:30, 9 July 2007 (EPT)

I definitely think that it's ascending without getting a single skill. I mean, that used to be impossible with the quest reward of the Friar's being a skill, but instead they give you an optional quest to go get Azazel's toys for they steel item. That still makes it completely optional to consume. And no quest actually requires a skill to complete. -Zebtrestalala 7:12, 10 July 20007

How about not opening your reward/letter? Of course, I guess that wouldn't work in a SCNP run... Rithe 21:04, 10 July 2007 (CDT)

I can't see that anyones suggested this already so has anyone tried NOT perming a skill when they ascend. I guess this might have been debunked already as it strikes me as blindingly obvious. Discordance 10:06, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

Muldar (first player to unlock bad moon) just dropped a fairly large hint in /hardcore on how it is unlocked - it's similar to nethack conducts - see nethack conducts. From this, I think we've got 3 possibilities:

  • Vegan: Fairly easy to achieve, but I doubt it's this.
  • Illiterate: This is what my money's on. No unlocking the gallery (You can read about Stephen and Elizabeth), no reading the strange leaflet, no using the manual of dexterity. How this fits with not using a "plus" sign I'm not sure.
  • Never hit with a wielded weapon: Again possible, if you range or spell-sling all the way.

Thoughts? --Bigcalm 16:27, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

I have heard that ascending without a familiar and not perming a skill on that run opens Bad Moon, but this doesn't make sense because the choose a sign and perming a skill is on the same page when re-ascending.--Phantamines 22:03, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

The never polymorphing an object immediately stood out to me. No zapping wand?--Creamy 22:28, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

I've updated the link to the NetHack wiki. --Tjr 12:12, 5 December 2010 (UTC)

Jumping to Speculation?

"Bad moon- AKA Hardercore, much as the name implies, is like Hardcore but more so. It's more difficult, but the rewards are supposedly much better. In short, It's Hardcore with no skills, familiars, and some suppose Ascension rewards from the previous ascension. (Which probably go directly to Hagnk's.)" ...Okay, how exactly do we know all this? The only thing I've heard STRAIGHT FROM THE HORSE'S MOUTH regarding the nature of Bad Moon is that it's a "totally level playing field". Unless we can find a quote from the devs in which the definition of a level playing field matches the description we've posted here, maybe we should change it to reflect the actual vagueness of what we know Bad Moon to really be. As it is, the Wiki description seems very convinced that BM does not involve skills, familiars, etc; I'm not disputing that it doesn't, but I have not heard anything that would constitute wording this article as if we already know what a BM run looks like.--Automatic Jack 15:15, 3 July 2007 (CDT)Automatic Jack

Is it just me, or does "BM run" look like a really bad name for something you might actually want to do? --Jonrock 15:59, 3 July 2007 (CDT)
  • just my two cents: "totally level playing field" implies that long time players w/ a store of familiars and HC skills would have the same advantages/disadvantages as new players. I agree - its all speculation as to the actual implimentation, but it makes sense that previous skills would be blocked. Familiars, on the other hand, have some leeway. I can envision starting HC w/ a mosquito and starfish for instance - as these are requirements for the previous ascension.. I can also see allowing the other 4 core familiars (goat, lime, potato, barrnacle) - though there is no guarrentee that the player would have all 4. Along that line - I can also see allowing familiars that aren't Mr Store or "limited" (teddys, rocks, npzr, etc) - as these familiars are available in game and its up to the player to collect them ahead of time. As for ascension rewards - I don't see why they would be limited - other than the first ascension - there's nothing stopping everyone to do a lead-in ascension that gives the best gear & gems. If someone wants to put the effort (or lack of) - why cant the enjoy the rewards if everyone has the same option? And yes - I can see an argument for more skills/familiars making the previous run easier, but this also leads to the arguement that it makes the previous run less significant (ie doing a HCO turtle tamer to get 3 canned air + plexi-pith helmet having the same lead in value of a softcore run) --Grimdel 15:08, 4 July 2007 (CDT)

A couple of ideas I've had for unlocking Bad Moon... has anyone tried these yet? Never equip any Mr. Store items or familiars and use no Mr. Store spells, use no spells from classes other than your current class. --Dayv 11:49, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Let's try thinking thematically (and I'm aware that some of these were suggested earlier, but thought is helpful to consolidate them): Not adventuring on stat days? Something to do with the Clearance Clearwater Revival song, "Bad Moon Rising"? Not wearing pants (heh heh, he said, "moon")? Maybe in the broader catergory of astrological events: Not taking a sign when offered? Taking a sign but not using its area? Can anyone think of anything else? How many question marks does it take to make the server explode? --Wass Ammattayou 17:45, 8 July 2007 (CDT)

Maybe the name "Bad Moon Rising" is a hint? Maybe when both moons are full or dark? Or... howabout no familiar during any combat? --Grimdel 15:08, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

    • Considering KoL's heavy reliance on movie/song references to solve puzzles, it seems likely that this is the case. I'd guess that since the name is a reference to the song "Bad Moon Rising" by Creedence Clearwater Revival, that the hint is in that song somewhere. ShiroSirius 18:00, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

I have a couple other ideas about a somewhat literal interpretation of the term "Bad Moon": (1) Perhaps one must do a run adventuring only on stat days, or conversely (2) Perhaps one must do a run adventuring only on non-stat days. --Riznok 07:45, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

My personal guess is to do a hardcore run with an "off moon" sign. For instance the Turtle Tammer is as we know a Muscle class, so it would not use a Muscle Moon Sign. Furthermore the Turtle Tammer seems to have a secondary class of Mysticality, so for this theory you should play as a Turtle Tammer under a Moxie Moon. Likewise the Seal Clubber should do a Hardcore run under a Moxie sign. As the number of people that likely already meet the requirement of being in a Hardcore run under an "off moon" sign is fairly high, I would also hazzard a guess that the player needs to be in an Oxy run. --Golianor 15:38, 11 July 2007 (CDT)

In my opinion it is either something ridiculously off the wall like beating every boss as a lycan (in a furry suit) or something so simple no one has thought to even consider it such as having a 95% grue favorite familiar. Norvilion 11:34, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Cleanup Required?

i was just noticing that the ascension talk page is very out of date, and has a lot of unneeded comments.

i'd suggest we clean it up (especially the old comments that say "i edited this in 2006. does it look alright?" and such) and try to sum the current discussions into a few sections. i.e. "Bad Moon Theories & News," "Counter Resets," and "One-Time Adventures."

then people could of course add new sections once they had new comments. but as of now, there are multiple discussions about single topics scattered throughout the page.

--Jericho 12:04, 15 July 2007 (CDT)

I second this. Clean up the talk page, remove the out of date stuff, including the Bad Moon related theories that are now debunked.
That said, Todays question is, can you do an Oxy Bad Moon run? And does it have extra-rewards beyond straight up Bad Moon?
Tiwaz 16:59, 16 July 2007 (CDT)

  • I kind of view the old comments on this page as being somewhat nostalgic. You can look back and see what it was all about during that time. --esko 18:22, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
  • My stance on this would be to archive all (ir)relevant comments.--Dehstil (t|c) 18:46, 16 July 2007 (CDT)
  • You cannot choose any dietary paths when selecting Bad Moon (thus cannot get any special rewards other than the Brimstone stuff), but of course you can play the run like an oxygenarian, just with regular semi-rare frequency on no spleen of steel. Also, not only the talk page needs to be cleaned up, the article itself as well. For example, there are some adventures mentioned in the Noobsphere section that are long obsolete and thus are not part of the noobsphere anymore. -- Ruby Eyes 13:52, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Considering how bad moon is a completely different beast all together...

Will it get it's own page once more is known about it?--Linkman95 08:06, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

I was just coming here to ask that. Hardcore doesn't redirect here, neither should Bad Moon. It's just tough until we know more specifics about it. --Clackling 08:35, 17 July 2007 (CDT)

HC Oxygenarian Bad Moon Path?

Has anyone done it yet? If so, can it be confirmed what the results are? Theoretically, it must be possible, as Bad Moon is simply a zodiac sign to choose, basically unrelated to chosen paths. I'm just wondering if the Plexiglass or Brimstone is rewarded. (or both? lol) I'd like to think Jick thought of the amazing impossibility of this pathway, and would make the absolute highest rewards, above both of these, for this double (triple? It IS HC, as well, though most don't really think about that much anymore) ultimate ascension, but I guess some of you guys would have found those in the database already if it were so. ~HikaruYami

I believe that Badmoon can not be selected in conjunction with any dietary path (probably for precisely these reasons, it'd be too hard, and the rewards would be confusing). --Wildfire393 22:19, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

Ah, thanks. I'm new to the game (haven't ascended once yet), but I plan to have my first ascension be HC (and not use 10LCs, of course) just to see if it will let me pick that. Ooh, maybe I'll do my first ascension HC oxygenarian, too... lol, that'll be interesting~

At least you get the proper rewards of the previous ascension after you finish the bad moon ascension! it would be a waste for that not to be the case!

EDIT: Nvm, I found more absolute confirmation that dietary paths can't be taken (you only said "believe", after all, sorry), so forget what I said~I'll stick to oxygenarian rewards. --HikaruYami 17:44, 18 September 2007 (CDT)

Familiar Weight Question

On the page there is this bit:

A familiar with zero kills is treated as weighing zero pounds for trophy purposes.

Shouldn't that read:

A familiar with zero experience is treated as weighing zero pounds for trophy purposes.

As I recall, familiar kills do not reset with ascension, but experience does. Also experience gained from the arena counts towards trophies while not increasing the number of kills. Jokermage 17:24, 9 December 2007 (CST)

I just ascended with a 1 pound Dandy Lion (the only other familiar with weight was my 20 pound Comma Chameleon) and it came through as 6 pounds when I resurrected. Is this new? --Emtu 15:16, 14 December 2007 (CST)

  • you have several turtle tamer ascensions. perhaps you have a certain skill permed? --Evilkolbot 15:22, 14 December 2007 (CST)
    • Yep, I completely forgot about that, since I just came out of hardcore. Drat, thought I discovered something new. --Emtu 23:23, 15 December 2007 (CST)

Ascension Tattoos

Ok, I just finished a casual ascension. When I opened up my letter from Ralphie, I got the second ascension tattoo (the II). I had the first one before. So, I'm guessing no matter what ascension you do, you get that tattoo, eh? ДҖ--Finalheaven63talk 11:07, 20 April 2008 (CDT)

Perma unlocking BM

The message you get immediately upon ascending (in a results box above Valhalla) from a 100% Black Cat Bad Moon run is:

By completing a 100% Black Cat Bad Moon run, you have permanently unlocked the Bad Moon sign for your character.

Not exactly sure where to add this just yet. --Flargen 01:07, 2 September 2008 (CDT)

Ascension skill queue suggestion

I'm starting up KOL again, and though I've been looking for some kind of list suggesting the order in which to make skills permanent, I have yet to find any such list. Perhaps this would be a valuable contribution to this wiki? I would start it myself, but I don't have too too much experience under my belt and don't have enough strategic knowledge to do that, or else I wouldn't be looking for such a list in the first place. --Morgoth1145 21:27, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Sounds like Hardcore Skill Analysis, which seems to need some attention. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 22:20, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Ah, didn't see any links anywhere for that. Might want to make it a little more prominent in the "See also" sections. --Morgoth1145 04:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Petition for new run style

With reference to Billy Pilgrim's amazing achievement [1], and having been given his own item (Ring of teleportation) I would like to suggest there should be a new run style with a new run reward for completing a 100% Teleportitis run. If you agree sign YES, if not, then NO.

  • YES --Brandonmarlo 09:30, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Internet petitions are almost as stupid as they are ineffective. Doubly so if on a wiki. In other words: NO. --Bale 10:01, 28 May 2009 (UTC)
  • Try sending a message to radiobugbear if you want Asymmetric to listen. There's no point starting a petition here because they won't see it. --Melon 11:14, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

The idea of this was to see if people would be interested, and if so, how many. The idea was not one based around that just this would get it done. Ironically Bale, you proved yourself wrong by answering NO lol. If enough people like the idea, then I will message Asymmetric. --Brandonmarlo 15:28, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

  • The wiki really isn't the place for something like this. Try a Make-A-KoL thread on the forums. --TechSmurf 16:45, 30 May 2009 (UTC)