Talk:Advanced Farming

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Love songs (specifically Icy Revenge and Sugary Cuteness) need to be considered. With their effectiveness being based on the number used what does their mall value have to be at to make their use profitable? -- Redwulf25 ci 21:28, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Okay, I am officially taking charge of this project again :). First order of business: generate the new meat per adventure (mpa) for the castle in the sky. This is going to be VERY complicated compared to the Icy Peak considering the variety of factors. My calculations/info/requests/other things will be listed below. --SomeStranger (t|c) 10:10, 8 October 2006 (CDT)

  • Looks like this has been abandoned. I'm going to work on it because I need this information for when I start farming in the coming months. Help would be appreciated, mostly with KoL knowledge. I have no problem doing the number-crunching and such on my own.Thedufer 22:27, 22 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I made up a spreadsheet in OpenOffice Calc for farming at the castle. You put in your individual meat bonuses, item bonuses, combat modifiers, and familiar weight modifiers. It spits out expected meat per adventure including autoselling/using the items that drop. I even added another MPA with a theoretical max for meat from item drop assuming using olfaction on goth giants (without considering the adventures spent finding a GG to sniff). My next step will be developing a more realistic hybrid between the two. All I need to do is decide what the average adventures are between "on the trail" running out and finding the next GG. The best familiar I have is a hobo monkey, so that's what I put in. Anyone who understands the spreadsheet could easily tailor it to their volleychaun, etc. (I even added in NPZR meat drops). This spreadsheet is meant to be used for you to compare what a change in equipment (or AT buffs, familiar, etc.) would do. I've never shared anything like this and don't know how. Please contact me via k-mail (rikitikitavi). I would love for others to look at it and give me suggestions (maybe even implement it better), but I don't know what the best route is for that. This is something I've always wanted so I sucked it up and just made it myself. I suspect others would like to have something like this as well. Let me know. --Rikitikitavi 03:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
    • actually, I figured something out. Here [1] they are. I have no idea whether the excel one will work, but if you have OpenOffice, use that one. [edit: checked it out, modified it, works fine] It has 4 [edit: 5] sheets specific to different familiar types. Cactus/Hobo Monkey, Volleychaun [edit: Fairychaun], Hound, and NPZR [edit: forgot the lep, that's in there now too]. I may add a 5th [edit: 6th] for fire ant since it's different enough from the Hound. Obviously these were all done with the assumption that the mutant familiars are 1.25 times their counterpart. Later today I will have a chance to actually look at the excel version in excel and make any necessary tweaks. As it stands, the sheets each pull from what you put in the first sheet for equipment/buffs. I will try to post an instruction sheet sometime today. [edit: included on the last sheet of each workbook] --Rikitikitavi 14:55, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

--I added a spreadsheet I created of the total average meat drops in the castle. it does not account for mallselling wolf masks, giant needles or magic whistles, nor pulverising them. if anyone things that the link should be moved, and needs a copy to do so, or wants to improve it to account for those oversights, or spots a mistake of some sort, contact me in game, I use the same name here and there. --Tiny plastic lelep 08:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)


NOTE: I assume that all items are autosold (keeps everything simplistic). I might take into account the value of the furry mask, but I am not sure yet. NOTE: We round all numbers to the hundreths place, except percentages to the tenths.

Combat Adventures - 152.12 mpa

  • We can posit that the combat adventure rate is 75% since Jick likes even numbers, however if the wheel adventure is taken into account the actual combat adventure rate is more in the area of 83.3%.
  • There are 6 combat adventures that can occur at any given time.
Alphabet Giant - 152.2 mpa
Furry Giant - 151.7 mpa
Goth Giant - 151.7 mpa
Possibility Giant - 152.1 mpa
Procrastination Giant - 152.3 mpa
Raver Giant - 152.7 mpa

Non-Combat Adventures - 423 mpa

  • That makes Non-combat adventures 18.8%.
  • There are four non-combat adventures which can occur at any given time.
In a Black Room, with Black Curtains - 594 mpa
thin black candle - 144 meat
Warm Subject gift certificate - 450 meat (not taking into account the first time you get the goth kid t-shirt)
What are the Odds? - 254 mpa
plot hole - 128 meat
chaos butterfly - 124 meat
The stat giving adventures are not taken into account because it assumed that it is the procrastination's giant turn to guard the back door (no stat adventures).
The Wheel is not taken into account because leaving it alone does not use an adventure.
  • It is important to know that the mpa for non-combat adventures cannot be modifed by items or buffs. It is static.

Autosell value Combat Adventures items - 113.92 mpa

The following table shows the 6 giants in The Castle in the Clouds in the Sky, and the value of the items they drop, per combat adventure.

All drop rate data was taken from the The Castle in the Clouds in the Sky links, and should be verified before using this table. Note that the Warm Subject gift certificate should be used, not sold.

Monster Item Chance Autosell Price/Use Avarage gain Per fight with this giant
Alphabet Giant heavy D 39.3 135 53.055
original G 41.3 143 59.059
Furry Giant disturbing fanfic 37.4 129 48.246
furry fur 29.1 132 38.412
wolf mask 10.5 165 17.325
Goth Giant awful poetry journal 29 136 39.44
thin black candle 29.2 144 42.048
Warm Subject gift certificate 28.6 450 128.7
Possibility Giant chaos butterfly 22.4 128 28.672
plot hole 30.9 128 39.552
probability potion 18.9 124 23.436
Procrastination Giant procrastination potion 28.9 138 39.882
Raver Giant Angry Farmer candy 30.6 137 41.922
giant needle 29.2 141 41.172
Mick's IcyVapoHotness Rub 28.4 150 42.6

So, the gain from autoselling combat adventure items is 113.92 mpa (a sixth of the sum of the last column).

Due to the way they work, item drop increasing effects will thus add 1.139 mpa per +1% Item-drop-rate increase.

Formula

If we use the above data we can determine that the formula is:

(combat adv chance)(meat bonus(mpa per combat adv)) + (item bonus(113.92)) + (non-combat adv chance)(mpa per non-combat adv)

Therefore, if we plug in the data we get:

81.2(meatbonus(152.12)+itembonus(113.92))+18.8(424)
  • Sweet, progress.--Dehstil (t|c) 21:29, 18 December 2006 (CST)
  • So what all does that formula mean? Klonoa 21:30, 6 April 2008 (CDT)
  • The amount of meat one receives on average per adventure. --SomeStranger (t|c) 22:47, 6 April 2008 (CDT)

I made a TI-84 calculator program to see how much meat is being made per combat, using the above

Prompt M,I
((.01*M)+1)(152.12)+((I*.01)+1)(113.92)->T
T

The idea is to determine the usefulness of raising combat frequency. Does it work, plugging in meat and item drop percentages in for M and I?--Rentsy 18:00, 28 April 2008 (CDT)

Weapon and skill choices

When the skills are reevaluated, Double Fisted should be taken out, as the meatspout renders the dual wielding of two machetes to be inefficient. Not only does the meatspout staff give a greater +meat%, but its power is higher as well. --J12601 13:47, 27 October 2006 (CDT)

  • Consider replacing the Phat Loot Lyric with Carlweather's Cantata of Confrontation, if Combat outcome is higher than 956 mpa (using a 34 lbs NPZR, or accumulating +450% meat effects), as it adds (20×1.14 =) 23 mpa to the combat adventures, and is worthwhile while:

532.72 + (Non-combat mpa) < (combat mpa)

--The Safe 06:16, 14 November 2006 (CST)

    • If you have it, is there any merit to equipping the Plexiglass Pendant to get the extra AT Buff and use Phat/Polka/Cantata/Aria?

(combat mpa)×0.85/(1-((1-0.85)/3))×1.07 > (combat mpa)×0.9/(1-((1-0.9)/3))

--The Safe 06:16, 14 November 2006 (CST)


I think this formula is wrong. Assuming (combat mpa) is the current meat gain without the rabbit's foot, then you are applying the extra 7% onto the the current meat drop as opposed the the base meat drop. A more correct formula would be the following:
(combat mpa without bonuses)×0.85/(1-((1-0.85)/3))×(1.07 + current meat bonus) > (combat mpa without bonuses)×0.9/(1-((1-0.9)/3)) * (current meat bonus)
So the value of current meat bonus decides whether the lucky rabbit's foot is better than monster bait. The higher the current meat bonus, the more meat the monster bait will give you as opposed the the rabbit's foot.
In NPZR farming, where monster meat drop is even less important, rabbit's foot becomes even less relevant as opposed to monster bait:
(((combat mpa without bonuses)×(1.07 + current meat bonus))+NPZRMeat)×0.85/(1-((1-0.85)/3)) > (((combat mpa without bonuses)*(current meat bonus))+NPZRMeat)×0.9/(1-((1-0.9)/3))
Of course I may be wrong since this math is already at the limit of what I can do in my head, and I'm too lazy to write anything down on paper.

--Pyng 22:27, 8 February 2008 (CST)

  • As for using snowcones, that depends on their mall value. A blue snowcone would add 31 mpa (30 × 1.14 × 0.894 chance for combat), green 89.4 mpa (67 if using a Leprechaun), and red 44.7 mpa.
    So, a blue snowcone is better sold for 620 meat than used, a green snowcone for 1,789 meat, and a red snowcone for 895 meat. --The Safe 06:16, 14 November 2006 (CST)
All of this data is actually present on the main page right now, but with the wrong mpa calculated for them. Once we determine the formula we are going to use we can go ahead and convert all of the old data. (By the way we round to the hundredths place). Give it a little bit longer and then we can start on the main page.--SomeStranger (t|c) 16:39, 13 November 2006 (CST)
  • The points I was trying to make refer to NPZR vs Leprechaun farming (in view of the need to reserve an AT buff slot for the aria of annoyane) and combat frequency enhancers - which should NOT be used.--The Safe 17:32, 13 November 2006 (CST)

--Hairgirl 12:31, 17 February 2007 (CST)

  • Consider adding The 7-ball which gives a 5% meat drop from monsters.
  • Consider adding The bar whip , When using the bobble hip hula elf, and a coffee pixie type familiar.

--Koolkid 11:12, 31 December 2007 (CST)

  • Consider adding The tip jar which gives a 5% meat drop from monsters.
  • We also need the 7-ball, which is better than the tip jar--same meat drop add, but no stat requirement. And it's easier to beat up pooltergeists than tipsy pirates. Another item that needs mention is the Order of the Silver Wossname; a +11% to meat AND items is pretty useful. And +11 stats makes some farming easier too. And the new origami pasties give +30% meat drops as a shirt (the duct tape shirt gives +20% with +9 Moxie, the Old Navy Fleece gives +10%). Sadly, it takes some farming for the chance adventure for the Old Navy, a LOT of duckfarming to get enough duct tape for the shirt, and the pasties were a Mr Store item; Old Navy and pasties are Mall buyable (the latter for megameat), the duct-tape shirt is not. Still, if you've got the resources to get them, +10/20/30% can pay off. Another option for Disco Bandits is their Legendary Epic Weapon, which I think gives +11% meat. Qaianna 13:16, 14 March 2008 (CDT)

Conisder the Hobopolis buffs, the Hobopolis familiar weight modifiers, summon mayfly swarm, summon hobo underling.--Eniteris 10:30, 5 August 2008 (CDT)

Class and Zodiac sign

NPZR farming at the castle should be done with a moxie character (DB or AT), so that moxie for "no hit" is achieved by level 16 (with hair spray), even for +140 ML modifier.--The Safe 13:16, 14 November 2006 (CST)

Notes

If the wheel is set so that the procrastination giant guards the back door the stat giving adventure no longer occurs and so the first two non combat adventures will be the only ones to use an adventure. Based on the current meat values of the two applicable non-combat adventures the average mpa non-combat would be 423.--Dbandit 02:28, 30 October 2006 (CST)

I was looking at the Non-combat adventure percentage and i was thinking that effectively a third of the non combat adventures would come up as the wheel. This would end up not using the adventure and so assuming it was used in the castle again it could posibly turn up as a combat adventure(or not). Using the values 75% combat 25% non-combat and a 1/3 of the non-combat being the Wheel adventure, and summing to infinity for the amount of times a non-combat adventure turns up (ratio of 0.083 3dp starting number of 0.166 3dp), there would be a non-combat adventure that uses your adventure 18.18% 2dp of the time. This is assuming the wheel was set to the back door and each time you ran in to it you left it alone and then adventured at the castle again.--Dbandit 03:07, 30 October 2006 (CST)


May I request a disambiguation page? Advanced meat farming could mean one of several things and I belive versions of what is best deserve their own page. --Radar 5pm june 4, 2007

With the Castle in the Sky, If you have an ADD, or a meat making familiar, you could easily earn 350-500 meat per combat adventure, respectively. --User: Supermarshmallowman 12:49 pm, August 12, 2007 (Mountian US time)

Pulverize versus Autosell

Since the Giant Needle and the Wolf Mask both pulverize into a twinkly wad roughly 50% of the time, and 4 nuggets the rest of the time, it can be reasoned that essentially 10 of each of those items yields 9 wads. You usually get 5 wads and 20 nuggets per 10 smashed, and assuming either a) Malus access, or b) the ability to get Malus access during an upcoming run or through a clan member or friend on this run, it can then be reasoned that you will eventually get 9 wads out of those 10 items. Current wad prices (as of todays Marketplace data) is ~376 per, while the needles and masks run at ~330 each. Since 10 wads will theoretically sell for 3384, and 10 needles for 3300, smashing your needles and masks to make wads will net slightly more profit.

If you do not have Pulverize, then malling the needles and masks will still earn you more meat than autoselling them, provided you are patient enough to wait for them to sell. Masks and needles seem to move in a volume of 1-2000 per day, while twinkly wads move over 5000 units a day. The autosell for 10 giant needles is 1650, while malling them even at minimum price will likely result in them being sold.--J12601 13:15, 30 October 2006 (CST)

Meat per Adventure formula

I just spent a few hours getting this formula down. This is the formula for adventuring at the Giant Castle without any added meat or item percentages, or changing the combat frequency.

.75(m(151.82)+i(125.025))+.25(424) = 313.6

Frequency of combat adventures (meat% (average amount of meat from combat adventures) + item% (average amount of meat made from all the items)) + noncombat frequency (average noncombat meat)

The formula I used to predict the amount of meat I'd get under my circumstances is:

.8(5.34(151.82)+1.54(125.025))+.2(424) = 887.4

I adventured a hundred times under these exact conditions, resulting in getting 91244 meat, which is quite close to my prediction. I'd say the formula is pretty accurate. Comments, questions? If other people could use this formula and work out any kinks, and then use it for the new Advanced Farming page, that would be cool. --TimJing 12:34, 12 November 2006 (CST)

I think that 152.2 as the mpa for combat adventures functions slightly better than your 151.82. The rest can be blamed on chance.--SomeStranger (t|c) 13:04, 12 November 2006 (CST)


The combat frequency / nc frequency should be changed to take the wheel into account:

Effective Combat Frequency = Combat Frequency/(1-(1-Combat Frequency)*1/3)

This would obviously give a non-combat frequency of:

non-combat frequency = 1 - Effective Combat Frequency

This yields a number closer to the result above.--Dbandit 05:21, 13 November 2006 (CST)

  • The wheel is not relevant if you turn it to procrastination giant taking out the trash and make sure to press the "leave it alone" button every time. The leave it alone button does not cost an adventure and setting it at the procrastination giant taking out the trash assures that you don't get any non combat stat adventures.--SomeStranger (t|c) 16:37, 13 November 2006 (CST)
    • I realise that the wheel doesn't use an adventure but it is relevant in the fact that there is a chance of getting it as a non combat adventure. This means that 1/3 of the time when you should have got a non-combat adventure you actually got no adventure (the wheel adventure), this means the effective percent of combat adventures is increased from the base level.
    • i.e. 3 out of 4 times when i adventure i get a combat straight off, the other 1 of 4 times i get a non-combat. 2 out of 3 of these non-combats uses an adventure. The other 1 of 3 i leave the wheel alone and have a 3 in 4 chance of combat or a 1 in 4 chance of another non-combat (which may also turn out to be the wheel). The formula above for Effective Combat Frequency takes this into account. In 48 adventures i would get 36 combat, 8 adventure using non-combat, 3 wheel then combat, 1 wheel then non combat(which could be a wheel or a adventure using non-combat, if it is a wheel it could be combat or non-combat again). Thats atleast 39 combats out of 48 adventures, which is more than the base combat frequency of 75%.
    • I don't know how to explain it more without uploading a probability tree, which would probably be overkill.--Dbandit 06:40, 15 November 2006 (CST)

Best Food Script is back

I rewrote my script in python, but the data is way out of date, so I won't use it to update the page right away until I can get some marketplace data/consumption data into the table, but here's the code:

# input: "name", adv, full, comment, price

fd=[["nothing", 0, 1, "No comment", 0],    # v
    ["abominable snowcone", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 152],    # v
#   ["angel-food cake", 3, 3, "Gift", 20000],        # a,s
    ["asparagus stir-fry", 2.5, 1, "No comment", 2675],    # v
#   ["Au Jus Gezund Heit", 5, 4, "Chez Snootée", 75],    # a
#   ["babycakes", 2, 2, "Gift", 2000],            # a,s
#   ["balaclava baklava", 2.5, 2, "No comment"],        # a,p
    ["bat haggis", 4.2, 2, "No comment", 359],        # w
    ["bat wing chow mein", 24, 5, "No comment", 6039],    # v
    ["bat wing kabob", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 728],        # probably
    ["bat wing stir-fry", 9.7, 3, "No comment", 3394],    # w
#   ["bell-shaped Crimbo cookie", 9, 2, "Crimbo"],        # a
    ["bean burrito", 5.2, 3, "No comment", 312],        # w
#   ["birthday party jellybean cheesecake",3,3,"Gift",100000],# a,s
#   ["blue velvet cake", 3, 3, "Gift", 5000],        # a,s
    ["boring spaghetti", 7.3, 3, "No comment", 1971],# close,98 samples
    ["Boris's key lime pie", 11.3, 4, "No comment", 2691],    # w
#   ["Bouillabaise Coucher Avec Moi",7,5,"Chez Snootée",100],# a
    ["bowl of cottage cheese", 2, 2, "No comment", 155],    # v,s,???
    ["bowl of lucky charms", 1.5, 1, "No comment", 1355],
    ["Brimstone Chicken Sandwich", 4, 3, "No comment", 109],# v
#   ["can of Red Minotaur", 1, 1, "No comment", 2649],    # old
    ["candy cane", 3.3, 1, "No comment", 2591],
    ["carob brownies", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 120],
    ["carob chunk cookies", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 123],
    ["carob chunk noodles", 5.8, 3, "No comment", 340],
    ["carob chunks", 1.2, 1, "No comment", 100],
    ["catsup", 1, 1, "No comment", 1236],
    ["cherry", 2, 1, "No comment", 788],
    ["chorizo brownies", 5.8, 3, "No comment", 159],
    ["chorizo taco", 2, 1, "No comment", 115],
    ["cocoa eggshell fragment", 1.6, 1, "No comment", 419],
    ["cranberries", 1.5, 1, "No comment", 102],
    ["delicious noodles", 8, 3, "No comment", 861],
    ["delicious spicy noodles", 10.9, 3, "No comment", 1873],
    ["Double Bacon Beelzeburger", 4.1, 3, "No comment", 131],
    ["dwarf bread", 3.9, 3, "No comment", 3803],
    ["Elfin shortbread", 6, 3, "No comment", 459],
    ["enchanted bean burrito", 6.1, 3, "No comment", 509],
    ["Ent cider", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 1642],
    ["fettucini Inconnu", 16.8, 6, "No comment", 4052],
    ["fruitcake", 4.5, 3, "No comment", 2239],
    ["ghost cucumber", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 4044],
    ["ghuol egg", 1, 1, "No comment", 504],
    ["ghuol egg quiche", 3.9, 2, "No comment", 206],
    ["ghuol guolash", 4.5, 3, "No comment", 260],
    ["ghuol-ear kabob", 3.7, 2, "No comment", 124],
    ["gingerbread bugbear", 2.9, 1, "No comment", 6777],
    ["glass of goat's milk", 1, 1, "No comment", 740],
    ["gnocchetti di Nietzsche", 17.5, 6, "No comment", 3819],
    ["goat cheese", 2.7, 2, "No comment", 1185],
    ["goat cheese pizza", 6.8, 3, "No comment", 637],
    ["gr8ps", 1.2, 1, "No comment", 3414],
    ["grapefruit", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["grapes", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["Hell broth", 10.7, 4, "No comment", 4018],
    ["Hell ramen", 25.4, 6, "No comment", 5460.5],    # gives ~22.5 meat?
    ["herb brownies", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 4643],
    ["hippy herbal tea", 2.2, 1, "No comment", 100],
    ["hot buttered roll", 1, 1, "No comment", 1022],
    ["hot wing", 1.5, 1, "No comment", 108],
    ["insanely spicy bean burrito", 10.9, 3, "No comment", 2673],
    ["insanely spicy enchanted bean burrito", 11.6, 3, "No comment", 2998],
    ["Jarlsberg's key lime pie", 11.7, 4, "No comment", 2519],
    ["Jumbo Dr. Lucifer", 1, 1, "No comment", 102],
    ["jumbo olive", 1.6, 1, "No comment", 719],
    ["ketchup", 1, 1, "No comment", 1297],
    ["Knob mushroom", 2.6, 2, "No comment", 215],
    ["Knob sausage", 2.6, 2, "No comment", 242],
    ["Knob sausage chow mein", 25, 5, "No comment", 5843],
    ["Knob sausage stir-fry", 10.7, 3, "No comment", 3090],
    ["Knob shroomkabob", 3.4, 2, "No comment", 164],
    ["Knob stir-fry", 5.2, 2, "No comment", 1481],
    ["Knoll mushroom", 2.8, 2, "No comment", 1232],
    ["Knoll shroomkabob", 3.4, 2, "No comment", 106],
    ["Knoll stir-fry", 5.8, 2, "No comment", 2130],
    ["large cocoa eggshell fragment", 3, 2, "No comment", 829],
    ["lemon", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["lihc eye pie", 6.2, 4, "No comment", 224],
    ["lime", 1.9, 1, "No comment", 1014],
    ["Lord of the Flies-sized fries", 4, 3, "No comment", 103],
    ["Lucky Surprise Egg", 1, 1, "No comment", 3174],
    ["menudo", 5, 2, "No comment", 274],
    ["mind flayer corpse", 5, 5, "No comment", 160],
    ["mushroom pizza", 7, 3, "No comment", 421],
    ["olive", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["olive stir-fry", 2.6, 1, "No comment", 1500],
    ["orange", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["painful penne pasta", 8.2, 3, "No comment", 1157],
    ["papaya", 1.5, 1, "No comment", 165],
    ["papaya taco", 2.2, 1, "No comment", 134],
    ["piece of wedding cake", 2.9, 2, "No comment", 316],
    ["plain pizza", 3.1, 2, "No comment", 140],
    ["pr0n chow mein", 19.8, 4, "No comment", 4841],
    ["pr0n cocktail", 3.4, 2, "No comment", 650],
    ["pr0n m4nic0tti", 10.9, 4, "No comment", 986],
    ["pr0n stir-fry", 6.9, 2, "No comment", 1935],
    ["purple pixel pie", 4.4, 3, "No comment", 422],
    ["radio button candy", 5.6, 1, "No comment", 819000],
    ["rat appendix chow mein", 24.5, 5, "No comment", 6030],
    ["rat appendix stir-fry", 10, 3, "No comment", 3526],
    ["rat appendix-kabob", 3.5, 2, "No comment", 108],
    ["ravioli della hippy", 8.3, 3, "No comment", 575],
    ["royal jelly", 1, 1, "No comment", 154],
    ["sausage pizza", 6.8, 3, "No comment", 269],
    ["skewered cat appendix", 3.4, 2, "No comment", 162],
    ["Sneaky Pete's key lime pie", 12.3, 4, "No comment", 2768],
    ["spaghetti with Skullheads", 17.7, 6, "No comment", 4049],
    ["Spam Witch sammich", 2.5, 2, "No comment", 128],
    ["spectral pickle", 23.1, 4, "No comment", 45066],
    ["spicy bean burrito", 8.6, 3, "No comment", 886],
    ["spicy enchanted bean burrito", 8.8, 3, "No comment", 995],
    ["spicy noodles", 9, 3, "No comment", 780],
    ["spooky mushroom", 2.8, 2, "No comment", 355],
    ["spooky shroomkabob", 3.4, 2, "No comment", 111],
    ["spooky stir-fry", 5.1, 2, "No comment", 1299],
    ["stalk of asparagus", 1.1, 1, "No comment", 558],
    ["strawberry", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["stuffed spooky mushroom", 5.7, 3, "No comment", 261],
    ["t8r tots", 1.3, 1, "No comment", 137],
    ["toast", 1, 1, "No comment", 138],
    ["tofu casserole", 5.9, 3, "No comment", 220],
    ["tofu chow mein", 14.3, 3, "No comment", 4714],
    ["tofu stir-fry", 3.6, 1, "No comment", 3950],
    ["tomato", 1, 1, "NPC buy", 70],
    ["Trollhouse cookies", 2.5, 2, "No comment", 124],
    ["uncooked chorizo", 1.2, 1, "No comment", 100],
    ["White Castle burger", 3, 2, "No comment", 189],
    ["White Castle fries", 3, 2, "No comment", 138],
    ["white chocolate and tomato pizza", 6, 3, "No comment", 2273],
    ["white chocolate chip cookies", 3.2, 2, "No comment", 100],
    ["white chocolate chips", 1.1, 1, "No comment", 106]]

# naive unbounded knapsack solver
# v[x]=fd[x][1]*mpa-fd[x][4]
# u[x]=fd[x][2]
U=15 # max fullness
nl=list(0 for i in range(max(len(fd),U+1)))
ul=range(len(fd))
def knapsack(mpa,index=4):
  x=nl[:]
  xx=nl[:]
  z=nl[:]
  uu=fd[0][2]
  adv=0
  cost=0
  for i in range(1,U+1):
    for j in ul:
      if fd[j][2]>i: continue
      b=fd[j][1]*mpa-fd[j][index]+z[i-fd[j][2]]
      if b<=z[i]: continue
      z[i]=b
      xx[i]=j
  while i>=1:
    a=xx[i]
    x[a]+=1
    i=i-fd[a][2]
  return x[:len(fd)]

o=[]
kzero=knapsack(0)
kx=knapsack(2,1)
i=2**12
upper=i
while i!=1:
  while knapsack(upper)!=kx:
    upper+=i
  upper-=i
  i>>=1
o.append([upper+1,kx])
kx=knapsack(upper)
while kx!=kzero:
  i=upper/4
  while i>0:
    while knapsack(upper)==kx:
      upper-=i
    upper+=i
    i>>=1
  o.append([upper,kx])
  upper-=1
  kx=knapsack(upper)
o.append([0,kzero])
for i in o:
  print "mpa:",i[0]
  for j in ul:
    if i[1][j]!=0:
      print "\t",i[1][j],fd[j][0],"(",fd[j][1],"adv,",fd[j][2],"fullness,",fd[j][4],"meat)"
  print ""

Regards.--Dehstil (t|c) 19:34, 13 February 2007 (CST)

Hey guys, I made my own best foods calculator. (I can modify it to add best drinks as well). It takes into account that you can get 15 fullness per day, so if you choose the food you want to eat, and the amount of meat you earn per adventure (plenty of scripts for that) you can find your net meat per day for any given food. I don't think any other scripts take this into account. I hope that makes sense. This is only a draft though: Does anyone know where I can find a well-formatted database with food/adventures/fullness stats that I can copy directly into excel? Mall costs would be great too.

-Dawdawdo

  • There's this site, which has a table that you should be able to copy and paste into Excel. However, it's got several things that are wrong or out of date, where the Wiki has correct(er) values. Of course, it's probably got correct values where the Wiki has wrong values too. KoLMafia seems to have already converted that page into text format. As for mall prices, things can fluctuate quite a bit. You may want to contact the Coldfront folks in charge of this page if you're convinced up-to-date Meat prices are necessary. --Bagatelle 10:52, 26 August 2007 (CDT)

Great, Thank you very much. This should be a good start. I'll post the new calculator with updated Booze/Food efficiencies soon. -Dawdawdo

Ok, I've got the worksheet working for food only. You simply enter your current mpa and current cost of the food, (say, in the mall) to see its cost effectiveness. This works really great with Lordhed's mpa calculator. I'll add the booze later.

BTW, It turns out that the KOL mafia site got its numbers from the other site you listed, so the tables are both the same.

Anyone know how I can put this in a thread by itself. As in, how do I create item 12 in the contents? I'm kinda new to this. Thanks all. -Dawdawdo 22:34:56 CDT, 27 August 2007

  • The contents automatically update when you start a new heading:
 ==New Heading in Between Equals Signs Like This==
You may want to skim over Help:Contents if you're new to Wiki editing. Remember to sign your name and date with --~~~~ on talk pages so people don't respond to two-year old comments (or so we can hope). --Bagatelle 22:47, 27 August 2007 (CDT)

Gain per adventure C++ Program

Well, I just whipped this up for myself and figured I might as well share it. I haven't tested it thoroughly. Do with it what you will. BSD License :)

Interestingly, it seems that if you're currently farming the Castle with three items that boost your meat gains by 10% each (ie. I'm using Toy Train, Toy Crazy Train, Porquoise Necklace), you're better off using three lucky rabbit's feet. Here's my calculations:

burke@zaphod ~ $ g++ meat.cc -o meat
burke@zaphod ~ $ ./meat
Enter meat bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)
.3
Enter item bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)
0
How many adventures are you going to farm for?
100
Your average meat mpa is 160.578
Your average item mpa is 172.027
Your average total mpa is 332.605
Your total meat from meat drops is 16057.8
Your meat from items is 17202.7
Your combined total gain is 33260.5
burke@zaphod ~ $ ./meat 
Enter meat bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)
.21
Enter item bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)
.21
How many adventures are you going to farm for?
100
Your average meat mpa is 149.461
Your average item mpa is 191.453
Your average total mpa is 340.914
Your total meat from meat drops is 14946.1
Your meat from items is 19145.3
Your combined total gain is 34091.4

See how in the first run of the program, my meat bonus is .3, item is 0. In the second, I have .21 for both, since each lucky rabbit's foot gives +7% to each. As it turns out, you end up at +8 meat/adventure, give or take (rough "calculation"). In addition, feet are dirt cheap (currently ~3k/ea). Toy Trains, on the other hand, are ~100,000 meat.

Here's the code.

#include <iostream>

using namespace std;

int main() {
    const double COMBAT_ADV_RATE    = 0.812;
    const double NONCOMBAT_ADV_RATE = 1-COMBAT_ADV_RATE;
    const double BASE_MEAT_DROP     = 152.12;
    const double BASE_ITEM_DROP     = 113.92;
    const double NONCOMBAT_MEAT     = 423;

    double meat_bonus;
    double item_bonus;
    int    adventures;
    
    double mpa_meat;
    double mpa_item;
    double mpa_total;

    double meat_meat;
    double meat_item;
    double meat_total;
    
    cout << "Enter meat bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)" << endl;
    cin >> meat_bonus;

    cout << "Enter item bonus (ie. 3.15 for 315%)" << endl;
    cin >> item_bonus;

    cout << "How many adventures are you going to farm for?" << endl;
    cin >> adventures;
    
    mpa_meat = (COMBAT_ADV_RATE * BASE_MEAT_DROP * (1+meat_bonus));
    mpa_item = (COMBAT_ADV_RATE * BASE_ITEM_DROP * (1+item_bonus))
        + (NONCOMBAT_MEAT * NONCOMBAT_ADV_RATE );
    mpa_total = mpa_item + mpa_meat;

    meat_meat = mpa_meat * adventures;
    meat_item = mpa_item * adventures;
    meat_total = mpa_total * adventures;
    
    cout << "Your average meat mpa is " << mpa_meat << endl
         << "Your average item mpa is " << mpa_item << endl
         << "Your average total mpa is " << mpa_total << endl
         << "Your total meat from meat drops is " << meat_meat << endl
         << "Your meat from items is " << meat_item << endl
         << "Your combined total gain is " << meat_total << endl;
    
}


His Noodleyness 01:48, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Yoink

How does this affect things - I've been having good results using yoink and the ice skates with the evil eye - I've been trying to work the formula but it's been 8 years since I did maths and I never saw that formula

And this

As for equipping the monster bait, that accessory slot is better utilized even by a Lucky rabbit's foot

Is actually untrue. With ninja farming, and a suitably high weigth ninja, the bait could improve your gains. As you should be using a fat ninja to farm at it's best the bait can be an improvement over a rabbit foot

Also it would help if we could compile a list of the damage done at each poundage of ninja (each lb have 3 damages done. Once you know the higthest damage done you can plan safe farming) --Sniddy 08:31, 27 May 2007 (CDT)

For a 40 lb (assuming all poss skills but no items) the damage is 64.5 each time it attacks, or 241 each 30-round battle. At 15th or higher level Aria should be enough to keep the giants alive that long. Also, with some calculation, the pendant is better than a rabbit's foot at 35 lbs of ninja, possibly below, as it lets you Polka/Loot/Aria/Cantata. Similarly the monster bait is better.--Lordhed 16:24, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

Also, a formula for farming with an NPZR:

mpa = (combat frequency) * (meat bonus * 152.12 + item bonus * 113.92 + 3.75 * (6 * NPZR buffed weight + 10) + (non-combat frequency) * 424

--Lordhed 16:38, 4 June 2007 (CDT)

Another thing: I made an excel spreadsheety thing to do this all automatically: http://www.megaupload.com/?d=SVXPXQ5Q --Lordhed 14:58, 5 June 2007 (CDT)

Is anybody even paying attention to this page anymore? Looking to clean this talk page up and bring it up to date. The Programming is neat, but it takes up a lot of space in here. Also, yes the advanced farming page needs work and it's acknowledged there, but shouldn't we at least change it so that it doesn't say the Icy Peak is the best farming area? Anonymous 23:45, 17 January 2008 (CST)

Putting it all together

The following post on the KOL Addicts forum sheds a whole lot of light on the Castle's math. it also includes a link that compares the (Nerfed) NPZR vs. Fairychaun for effectiveness in the castle, which determines that the Fairychaun comes out on top. It compares what +meat% boosts versus +item% boosts mean in terms of how much meat per adventure you can expect with +15% combat rate.

It can be basically summed up by saying that: You should use a Fairychaun, and boost your meat drop rate as high as you can, cost effectively.

http://www.koladdict.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4579

--MindlessGames 06:06, 10 February 2008 (CST)

Getting this going again

  • I talked with SomeStranger, and judging by this talk and the history, this project is largely ignored.
  • Here's my message from SomeStranger:
  • I am only involved in the actual playing of KoL now, so you should definitely take on the project yourself if you want. I did the original version of the page, but the Icy Peak nerfs made it obselete and I never had the will to remake the page since I was no longer farming for meat.

Best of luck. ~SomeStranger

  • I'll head the project unless there is a shadow management I don't know about. If someone is working on this page, I'll gladly contribute my time and skills. I have a lack of programming skill, so I can't help in that regard, but my knowledge of algebra and other related mathematics can be used in a different way.
  • For non-writers reading this, Castle Farming with a Fairychaun or even just the Leprechaun is the best right now. Autosell afterwards. Simple enough?--Duty 13:26, 10 February 2008 (CST)
  • As it turns out, NPZR may still be good. But it lags the servers; probably why it was nerfed.
  • I want to delete the food table; it is giant, outdated anew by the hour, and generally not useful. I'm going to remove it, but if anyone wants it, it will remain in the history. Obviously. --Duty 17:01, 15 February 2008 (CST)
  • Sorry about the fullness mistake...I've been in my last NS11 run with stomach for almost 8 months...in other news, I'm still working and looking for help by anyone. If you want to help, just do so!--Duty 17:08, 17 February 2008 (CST)
  • I have many a schedule conflict; I do not think I can do much work on this for a good long while. I will answer whatever questions in-game you have. But I cannot work on this for now. Sorry. --Duty 06:37, 21 March 2008 (CDT)

Add BHH helmet to equipment list

could this be added to the list of equipment, but keep the miners helmet as it is good for low level players.--Noinamg 22:45, 28 February 2008 (CST)

Ye olde navy fleece

i wonder why this item was never added here... it give 10% meat bonus.

Origami pasties give +30% meat. --00p 17:03, 24 April 2008 (CDT)

It could be added for Apathetic Lizardmen or something like that, since it's basically free to get in the Palindome.--Pepeson 11:29, 10 May 2008 (CDT)

Lizardmen do not have torso --Wou 13:12, 15 June 2008 (CDT)

Time to Get Some Work Done

So I recently found myself calculating things that should be on this page for my own benefit, so I figure I ought to throw it on here. I'll get started crunching numbers when I get home. Help would be appreciated, but I can do math and programming and have quite a bit of free time, so the thing I am lacking most is general KoL knowledge. So feel free to correct silly assumptions and the like.

First off, a quick explanation of the % combat adventures, because some seemed confused. Lets say we have 12 very average adventures. Based on the % combats, we will get 9/12 combats and 3/12 noncombat. One of the noncombats will be a wheel. Since we non-adventure the wheel, we remove that from the pool, leaving us with 9/11 combats and 2/11 noncombats, which yield the actual percentages when skipping the wheel.

More to come! Thedufer 10:03, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Assumption: Since the NPZR nerf, leprechaun is better. A proof or disproof would be useful. Thedufer 22:05, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Some Initial Numbers

Looks like the base average meat per adventure (no +items or +meat) is 295.16. This is noncombat meat per adventure (76.91) plus combat meat from items per adventure (93.79) plus combat meat drops per adventure (124.46). Based on how item drops work, the final formula based on +meat and +items is going to be piecewise, and therefore complicated. I will write a program to do it for me. You should be able to easily calculate assuming no +items, though. Enjoy!Thedufer 22:53, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Update: Quick calculations indicate that the +items formula will be simple up to +142.1%. Speculations on whether its likely to ever go higher than this while farming? If not, it greatly simplifies the formula (not piecewise, at least).Thedufer 23:04, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Formula

Formula for meat per adventure assumes less than +142.1% items. 76.91 + 93.79 * (1 + Increased Item Drops / 100) + 124.46 * (1 + Increased Meat Drops / 100) Well, its progress. That might be all for tonight.Thedufer 23:11, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

Comments:

Some new accordion thief buffs must be taken into effect (hobopolis). With the new ones, there are 4 buffs useful for farming. It remains to be seen if its worth wearing the plexiglass pendant or the brimstone beret in order to allow the fourth song.Thedufer 23:23, 22 July 2008 (CDT)

I imagine +items% won't go over 142.1% in normal farming because +meat% is worth more per %.

  • Don't be deleting someone else's talk, especially someone with admin powers, no matter how out-of-date. It's considered rude. As for the mechanics of farming, you're probably better off asking for help in the official forum thread, as it has far more active discussion than Wiki talk pages. --Bagatelle 18:57, 23 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Whoops! I'm not really up on wiki etiquette. Thanks for the info and the link! --Thedufer 21:01, 23 July 2008 (CDT)

Program

mpa calculator at http://www.tjhsst.edu/~adufour/calc.html Check it out, should be useful for deciding on which equipment, etc. Thedufer 20:56, 28 July 2008 (CDT)


Disco Nirvana? I don't know if this is the place to mention it, but I haven't seen any talk of disco nirvana. It is a class-specific thing, but it's an easy +30% for disco bandits. Isutan 01:45, 24 Sept 2008 (EST)


  • I've made a site that calculates Cost-Effectiveness for any given item in any given location. It can be found Here.--Grarg

New gear numbers

I've been doing a quick number crunch, and it appears that Hobo gear is now the theoretical max for meat gains.

Off-Hand: Hodgman's Garbage Sticker (Converts Hobo Points to Meat gains 1:1 ratio [10 Hobo points = 10% Meat gain], unsure if Hodgman's Imaginary Hamster would be better, as it converts Hobo Points to Meat gains as well as Item gains, but the ratio is unknown. If it's 1:1, it's obviously better, but as of now... )

Weapon: (Doesn't matter) Bottle Rocket Crossbow = 15%

Pants: Hodgman's Lobsterskin Pants = 25 Hobo Points = 25%

Hat: Hodgman's Porkpie Hat = 25 Hobo Points = 25%

Shirt: (Doesn't matter) Origami Pasties = 30%

Accessory 1: Hodgman's Bow Tie = 25 Hobo Points = 25%

Accessory 2: Hodgman's Lucky Sock = 50 Hobo Points = 50%

Accessory 3: (Doesn't matter) Grimacite Goggles = 30%

The bow tie completes the hobo set, which gives 25 bonus hobo points, ergo 25% more meat.

So (drumroll, please), the grand total comes out to 225% for just gear. The previous theoretical max (that I came up with) was just 160%. Obviously this isn't taking into account familiar weight boosting or item drops, but just for pure meat, this is the pinnacle. --Eldamith 12:03 AM, 21 August 2008 (PST)

>.< Doh. Last time I checked that it was totally out of date. Sorry about that. Someone can delete this. D:> --Eldamith 19:55, 21 August 2008 (CDT)

Hyperlinks to Mall?

Perhaps we should put hyperlinks on the prices of items in the mall, either to the Coldfront mall data page or some in-server automatic search. I think it would help keep prices current.--Larryboy 21:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well every item page already has a link to the Coldfront data...--Toffile 01:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)
But that means clicking on two pages, so it takes twice as much time to load, which is a tad bit annoying. One click is faster than two clicks, and would make it so much easier to update prices, especially if it opened the link in a new window.--Larryboy 04:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Olfaction

I think that, once this page is updated again and is back in working order, it might be worthwhile to throw in a note that says that the gallery is an extremely effective place to farm meat if you have transcendent olefaction and can get on the trail of the cubist bull. I don't know if the relative lack of item drops in the gallery definitely makes it less profitable than the castle, but it's still probably worth mentioning.

  • Or you could just, y'know, sniff Goth giants and get tons of Warm Subject Gift Certificates. And sign your posts. And learn how to spell Olfaction.--Knobula 17:38, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm sure he's just a newbie excited to contribute what he thought might be helpful. No need to use an antagonizing tone.--Darkfeline 07:38, 13 January 2009 (UTC)

Scratch 'n' Sniff stickers

The effects of the Scratch 'n' Sniff sticker UPC aslo need to be acocunted for as well. --Joshera 01:48, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

+Item% Effect on Warm Subject Gift Certificate Drop Rate?

I've read in a few places that +Item% doesn't influence the drop rate of Warm Subject Gift Certificates, is this true? I couldn't seem to find any definitive source to verify this. Nialroc 00:17, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Stocking Mimic and combat frequency

Some of the numbers I've been running has made things quite interesting. The Stocking mimic is like a cocoboa on crack... or at least an extreme sugar rush. Calculating for a 100 pound mimic I came to the following results:

  • Average meat per drop: 409
  • A mimic acts 33% of the time, 25% of that (in the first 10 rounds) gives meat, and 25% percent of THAT gives double meat.
  • This works out to: 409 meat *10 rounds *.33 chance of acting *.25 of dispensing meat *1.25 to accomodate "Happy Holidays!" = Roughly 421 meat per combat adventure
  • If Jingle Bells is factored in too: 409 meat *10 rounds *.43 chance of acting *.25 of dispensing meat *1.25 to accomodate "Happy Holidays!" = Roughly 549 meat per combat adventure

Naturally, any buffs or skills that up the familiar's weight would provide more meat. But given this alone, someone with a Stocking Mimic could find more value in higher combat frequency, possibly even forgoing the Giant's Castle completely in favor of an area with constant combat or item drops that sell high. (This does not include sniffing Goth Giants). Food for thought at the very least.--Fluxxdog 17:08, 23 March 2010 (UTC)

If you have a Stocking Mimic, the giants castle is no longer the place you want to farm. Try the Hamburglaris Shield Generator ~ scaling monsters up to 5000ML give huge stat gains (only deep levels of Fernswarthy's basement are better for stat gains), lunar isotopes trade in for epic tier moon pies and wrecked generators (after completing the Elvish Paradise quest), which can push your daily turn count over 400 (increasing the amount of meat you can farm overall), and the elven medi/magi-packs autosell for decent profits. Also, having an IotM Libram to dump all your excess MP into, using a Loathing Legion helicopter gives better performance from the Stocking Mimic than the bag of many confections, and using a Candyblast stasis combat macro will slightly improve your overall profits. - AvangionQ / August 15, 2011.

Removed the following section from the main page

Item Drop Increases

Item drop increases act oddly with a lot of them because at some point the odds of each item dropping will hit 100%, and it can't get any higher than that. The following table shows the values that can be used to calculate more accurately how much meat per adventure is added by each percent of increased item drops. To use this chart, you add the mpa * Increased Item Drop / 100 for the amount of increased item drop you have between each consecutive row. For example, if you have +160% item drops, you would have 93.79 * 142.1 / 100 + 85.74 * 12.4 / 100 + 78.51 * 5.5 / 100 added meat per adventure from item drop increasers.

Increased Item Drops Increased Meat per Adventure per 100% Increased Item Drops
0.0% 93.79
142.1% 85.74
154.5% 78.51
167.4% 71.93
223.6% 66.54
226.8% 60.82
242.5% 49.48
243.6% 44.24
244.8% 38.86
246.0% 33.42
249.7% 15.87
252.1% 9.48
346.4% 5.57
429.1% 2.37
852.4% 0.0

Wads and the market place

I need some input on factoring in the value of smashables for zones. Wads priced at 500 sell pretty quick..should i base values on a wad being worth more like 550? Judge Omega 01:13, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

The prices of all items fluctuate. I'd go with the 500, because it's a nice round number and thus easier to mentally adjust the results up to 550 or 600 or down to 450. Someone who is going to need exact values is going to have a spreadsheet already. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 03:31, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I think you should just teach people to do their own math.--P4n1q 04:59, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

Complete

Pretty much done here, anything else which you feel should be included? Any readability or formatting issues you should handle yourself. Also wouldnt hurt to have a second set of eyes double check everything.

Recent changes to this page

I've been watching this, and a lot of the changes are very misguided, and often outright wrong. Why do I not change them? Well.. what would be the point? The Castle combat rate with the Wheel set to D can be found by the following formula: (75 + c) / ((75+c) + 2/3*(25-c)), where c = +combat% modifier. So at +0% combat, you have 81.8% combat rate, at +5% combat, you have 85.71% combat, and so on based upon the formula. The meat drop from each Castle monster is 120-180, average 150, it's a Triangular Distribution (like all meat drops from monsters) which has Center of 150, and a range of 30. This chart is a comparison of various familiars in the castle, with very high-end equipment being used, which I built for a friend. There are a lot of things to consider, such as certain items maxing out to 100% drop rate, after enough +item%. Stating things like "with On the Trail active, other combats in the area can be largely ignored" is just staggeringly false. The cost comparisons of things depends heavily on which area you are using the items in, what the encounter rates you are expecting for various monsters are, and what other bonuses you have, especially in the case of +item% boosters (or +familiar weight). I do not want to discourage you from trying to re-write the page; however, I would strongly encourage you to first learn about what you're actually writing, before trying to write up an "Advanced" guide for it. --RoyalTonberry 23:08, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate the feedback, i fixed the combat frequency in the castle. My statement about on the trail, i believe is true for the majority of high yield single combatants. Perhaps untrue for low yield targets. Ill note it.

Your payoff on the nprz and other familiars appears glaringly outdated. Did you factor in 10 rounds max for your producers? Or am i wrong in thinking that? I do not have the familiars myself.

As per the meat rates i listed, they were all individually factored from the information available under each combatants wiki entry. Perhaps those numbers should be changed?

As for topping out item find... i assumed if you had the rare gear needed to do so, you wouldn't need to farm. But ill make notes of it.

And finally, as for "learn about what you're actually writing". Even though I find your tone derogatory and hostile, i feel i could better understand the high end farming dynamic if i actually had access to the high end gear/skills which you obviously possess. Perhaps you could loan me several hundred million meat so i can field test some it and thus be better able to contribute to the wiki.

Judge Omega 23:50, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

  • Glaringly outdated? How so? They do factor in the 10 round thing. In fact, the only thing they don't factor in is that the monster can be killed by the NPZR or Mimic before 10 rounds are up. And yes, you should learn more about how farming and all of this stuff actually works. The fact that you think the base combat rate in the castle is 75.5, and that the meat drop averages are not 150 screams of not doing research. Begging me for hundreds of millions of Meat is no way to gain my sympathy or make me think you have any idea what you're talking about. In fact, it makes me think even more that you have no idea what's going on. You don't need gear to build this stuff, you just need to understand the Mathematics of it all. --RoyalTonberry 23:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
  • The growing complexity of farming makes pages like these a minefield. You get technical and high-end players like RT and myself quivering in nerd rage over shortcomings like the ones RT just mentioned. But detailing them rigorously is arduous, and makes it more difficult for a more typical player to make sense of. Back when this page was first created, things were a good deal simpler. There was no olfaction; there were essentially no other zones with meat drops competitive with the castle (in many ways there still aren't; the sea eclipses it in base drops, but has its own unique problems); there was a much more limited selection of good item-farming options; and viable farming gear and buffs were much more limited. I think it would be a massive project to make a robust, modern-day "advanced farming" page. It would probably require careful revisiting of the non-advanced farming page. Being a lazy bum, I've tended to want to just delete pages like this and/or leave these things to offsite guides, and just stick with the basics on the wiki. --Flargen 23:38, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
    • I would also like to see this page deleted. I don't think it should be linked from the main page, either.--P4n1q 23:48, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
    • Yeah, it is more difficult for a typical player to pick apart. However, that's why there's a Basic Farming page, which oddly enough, is more informative that this Advanced Farming one is. Made me blink a few times. I don't know about flat-out deleting this page, but maybe wiping it, leaving the link to off-site resources is better. I mean.. it's nice to have this kind of thing on the wiki, but to make an "Advanced" (and I do mean Advanced) guide for farming in a general case is a very tall order. Especially since cost effectiveness tables would have to be tweaked for all the various areas possible. What is good for the Castle isn't good for Black Forest (where you'd want a Slimeling or some way to get +567% item sustained, good luck with that). What is good for the Sea isn't good for drum machine farming, which isn't good for tomb ratchet farming, and the list goes on, and on, and on. --RoyalTonberry 23:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the comment on your familiar table, i just noticed the fine print at the top.Judge Omega 23:55, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Deletion

I obviously spent a lot of time trying to contribute. If this isn't worthy, so be it. But just remember who tried to help, and who didn't really contribute much. Ill not waste another second updating.Judge Omega 00:11, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

  • It's nothing personal. I've deleted dozens of pages that obviously received a lot of work from someone or another. This isn't a "haha, you suck, here goes all of your work" kind of thing. The contention RT and I (and a few others) are having is that this page is inherently unable to fulfill its intended goal. At least not in a way that is consistent and amicable with the wiki's scope and purpose. The true high-end of farming is so complex that we'd probably need a half-dozen pages with highly technical formulas and eye-destroying tables to do it true justice. An accomplishment that would give one high nerd honors, but I think it'd be a bit much for the wiki. An offsite page serves better for this. There's less (or no) chance for conflict between editors and readers; no wars to be had over what's opinion, what's fact, what's worth including, etc. You can bring in webpage tools that would assist in the presentation and organization that you don't have on a wiki, like a sidebar specifically for the farming pages or a script that can calculate things based on data given by a visitor to the page. So on and so forth. Trying to make farming techniques accessible to a wider audience than those of us who are willing and able to do the calculations, or are friends with such people, is a worthwhile goal. So there's nothing inherently wrong with your trying to update this page. It is just so complex that the wiki can't really contain it in a productive way. --Flargen 00:41, 22 May 2010 (UTC)