Discussion/archive5

Choice Adventure template

Currently all adventures, when listed on location pages, use {{combat}} or {{adventure}}; combat adventures and non-combat adventures specifically. Choice adventures currently use {{adventure}}, but they lookk klunky and may need a template of their own, for example: --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:34, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

---

Ouch! You bump into a door!
	Item Drops: magic lamp, dead mimic Meat Drops: (-50)/ (-5000)/ 0 Substat Gain: 0/ 9/ 0

• Buy a magic lamp (lose 50 meat, magic lamp).
• Buy what appears to be some sort of cloak (lose 5,000 meat, fight a mimic). The dead mimic is a one time drop.

• If you beat the mimic, the store will not reoccur. If you lose, the store will become unavailable until after rollover.

• Leave without buying anything.

Wouldn't something listing the choices be more appropriate? --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:34, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

Ouch! You bump into a door!
	Buy a magic lamp (50 meat): magic lamp Buy what appears to be some sort of cloak (5,000 meat): Fight a mimic Leave without buying anything.

• If you beat the mimic, the store will not reoccur. If you lose, the store will become unavailable until after rollover.

Parameters could look like ...choice1name=CHOICENAME|choice1=CHOICERESULT|choice2name...etc. I don't think any have more than 4 choices, and parser functions could omit choice2name/3/4 if they are not present. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:34, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

• Generally speaking, I like it. This is a difficult example, as it would be nice to also see the {{combat}} data for the mimic. On something of a digression, it might be nice to set up something specifically for challenges, like for some of the The Daily Dungeon and Fernswarthy's Basement adventures, the haiku challenges in the The Haiku Dungeon, *etc. --Gymnosophist 23:06, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
• I've started {{Choice}}, It should be adaptable. I'll try if with a few more different types of choices before I start using it. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 23:02, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

Something somewhat like this would help make the summary of The Bonerdagon look less clunky.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:29, 7 September 2006 (CDT)

On a side note: I added {{button}} which:

Does This!

• it might be useful, if it's not, well it's not. Choice adventure pages may look nice with them, maybe...--JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 23:45, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
  • I like it. --Quietust 23:47, 8 September 2006 (CDT)

I started trying out these templates on The Spooky Forest page (before I take the time to go through all of' em), and all choice adventures (3 or 4 ish) spawning from the spooky forest. I like to see what other people think. I always feel like things needs a little sumpin', but I can never figure out what it is. ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 20:52, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

• I generally like it. The individual adventure pages, both the "master" page (A Three-Tined Fork) and the "sub" pages (Footprints, etc.) all look good just as they are. On The Spooky Forest page, it looks good, but it's hard to distinguish the the "sub" adventures from the regular adventures. Maybe we can indent the "sub" adventures and somehow eliminate the horizontal separator lines between Fork and Footprints, between Footprints and Craters, and between Craters and Road Less Visible. This should make it more apparent that these four adventures are actually part of a single whole.--Gymnosophist 22:51, 12 September 2006 (CDT)
  • JRSiebz, you went ahead and implemented the choice templating without addressing the issue raised above with regard to listing the "sub" adventures on the location page. The Spooky Gravy Barrow, The Dungeons of Doom, as well as the The Spooky Forest now all have problematic adventures. We need to do something about this. --Gymnosophist 15:59, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
    • I dunno if they look better indented, or with/without lines, erg. It makes The Spooky Gravy Barrow look odd. I almost like them in line like they were before. Stupid nested adventures. ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 17:11, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
      • I'm not sure either - it stills look sorta odd. Perhaps it will look better without separator lines, although the indenting and separator lines were just a suggestion. Do you have some alternative thoughts? I'm just really dissatisfied with the original look - you can't tell that these are "sub" adventures without reading the fine print. There should be some sort of visual cue that tells you that. And, should it come to it, we shouldn't feel that we are bound to use a template for these "sub" adventures. Templates should serve to help with standardization and ease of editing, but should not serve as a straightjacket. Looking forward to your thoughts. --Gymnosophist 19:21, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
      • "Do you have some alternative thoughts?" - No, not really. Must be wiki-block. I think the sub-adventures should be there on the location pages so that you can see all outcomes of a "nested" adventure without cramming all the information into one adventure'ss combat/adventure/choice template, but I have no half decent idea on how it should be there or what it should look like. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 19:32, 16 September 2006 (CDT)
        • I did a manual cram-all-the-information-into-one-adventure approach for the The Haunted Billiards Room adventure Minnesota Incorporeals (just the location page - I didn't touch the adventure page). What do you think of this sort of approach? While, this approach doesn't show the "sub" adventure names (Broken, A Hustle Here, a Hustle There), I'm OK with that. To me, this approach gives a complete breakdown of all the choices that is both logical and functional, while not confusing the user as to what is a "main" adventure and what is a "sub" adventure. This approach could easily be adopted by the The Spooky Gravy Barrow choice adventure Heart of Very, Very Dark Darkness. You would lose the "sub" adventure names, but again, I think that's fine - they're easly sacrificed in the name of functionality. You would also lose the "hand" image in the How Depressing "sub" adventure, but I'm OK with that as well - the function of the location pages is to provide a stripped down version of the adventure page that is easily understandable, and shouldn't sacrifice clarity for the sake of showing details you can find on the actual adventure pages. With regard to the The Dungeons of Doom adventure Ouch! You bump into a door!, I think a little tweaking would get rid of the "sub" adventure confusion. For the Buy what appears... choice, follow it with "Fight a mimic (see details below)". The mimic would be immediately below the Ouch, but titled "Ouch! You bump into a door!: Buy what appears to be some sort of cloak: mimic, and there is no separator bar. What do you think? --Gymnosophist 05:10, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
        • I also did The Haunted Library adventure Take a Look, it's in a Book!. It's sprawling, but very compact and understandable when compared to using the individual "sub" approach. --Gymnosophist 11:08, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
          • Ye Gods, that'll take some getting used to. --Jonrock 11:18, 21 September 2006 (CDT)
          • I like your format, Gymnosophist, but you've gone through a lot of trouble to do manually what you can do fairly easily with the Choice template. For example, here's my code for Minnesota Incorporeals:

{{Choice|name=Minnesota Incorporeals|image=pooltable.gif
|choice1name=Break
|choice1=You gain 50 {{Moxie}}.
|choice2name=Let the Ghost Break
|choice2=<br />
:*'''Go for a solid:'''
::*'''Go for the 8-ball:'''
:::*'''With [[Chalky Hand]]:''' Acquire...
:::*'''Without [[Chalky Hand]]:'''  You lose.
::*'''Play defensively:''' You gain 50 {{Mysticality}}.
::*'''Chicken out:''' Leave, no adventure loss.
:*'''Go for a stripe:''' You gain 50 {{Muscle}}.
:*'''Go for a walk:''' Leave, no adventure loss.
|choice3name=Run Away
|choice3=Leave, no adventure loss.}}
*This adventure will not occur unless you are adventuring...
*The [[Spookyraven library key]] is required in order to...

You can see the results at The Haunted Billiards Room. It looks the same as before. —Dentarthurdent(T,C) 16:39, 28 September 2006 (CDT)

• I (still) dunno. I don't like how in the "crazy tree" ;-) you lose the links to the "sub-adventure" pages (which are now at least all created now). I blame this whole discussion on myself, for wanting to create Choice Adventures by Number, and making {{button}}, and then trying to figure out a way to make them all look the same ;-) I do think that the combat adventures which are a result of a sub adventure should be on the main location page (via {{combat}} with all the other combat encounters in a particular location. Well at least the Violet Fog and Louvre It or Leave It are formatted the same way. Now just it's really just the multi-tiered choice adventures (and their children) causing the problems/inconsistancies (Heart of Very, Very Dark Darkness, A Three-Tined Fork, Minnesota Incorporeals, Take a Look, it's in a Book! (Rise), and Take a Look, it's in a Book! (Fall)). Can you nest templates (easily, without need to use {{!}} a lot)? --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:13, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
  • Don't blame yourself - it's clearly Jick's fault! As for {{button}}, you deserve a medal for that, or at least a lapel pin - or maybe even a button! Actually the timing of all this was excellent - we were grappling with the choice adventure issue just as the Manor and it's many complex choice adventures opened. I completely agree with you about showing choice combat adventures on the main location page. I'm not sure that nesting templates is necessarily the answer here, perhaps just a minor tweak to the Combat template to add an optional variable that surpresses the top separator would be all that is needed. On the multi-tiered choice adventures, I added subadventure links to the "crazy tree" (I like it!) in The Haunted Library Take a Look, it's in a Book! adventures and also tweaked the "Occurs" text of their subadventures. Hopefully these tweaks will serve as a palliative for any remaining reservations about the "crazy tree" approach. In any event, I think it's probably time to decide on a single approach for multi-tiered choice adventures: the "crazy tree" approach illustrated by The Haunted Library's Take a Look, it's in a Book! adventures, or the "subadventure list" approach illustrated by The Spooky Gravy Barrow's Heart of Very, Very Dark Darkness/Darker Than Dark/How Depressing/On the Verge of a Dirge/Felonia, Queen of the Spooky Gravy Fairies. Personally, I'm a definite proponent of the "crazy tree" approach.
    • "an optional variable that surpresses the top separator" - noline=anything will do that in {{Combat}}, {{Adventure}}, and {{Choice}}, I usually use "noline=yes". All 3 of those templates also have a (hardly used) variable called "nest", which I temp added to test easy indenting on the barrow page (which i recently removed). It is the same "amount" as what a colon (:) adds (2em, if i remember right), so "nest=2" would added the equiv margin of two :'s., it just "indents" the table 2n ems, n bing the value of nest. I made {{Combat}}and {{Adventure}} all "look the same", internal template code-wise, when I started {{Choice}}, so they all "work" the same. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 00:40, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
    • I have come to believe that Jick regularly browses the wiki to determine what game features would cause the most editing headache, and targets those for development. --Jonrock 01:31, 30 September 2006 (CDT)
      • JRSiebz, thanks for the noline and nest info. I hadn't looked at those templates very closely, so I didn't know about them. I've used them to tweak The Haunted Gallery choice sub-adventures. I think they look pretty good now - what do you think? On the "crazy tree" approach vs. the "subadventure list" approach, we seem to be at loggerheads on the matter, as your edits to The Haunted Gallery and The Spooky Gravy Barrow continue to use the "subadventure list" approach. What do we need to do in order to achieve a consensus on this? --Gymnosophist 20:36, 2 October 2006 (CDT)
        • Hmmm - 10 days later and nary a peep from anyone. Before too long, based on the lack of interest expressed here, I'll just have to assume that no one really cares for the "subadventure list" approach and implement the "crazy tree" approach accordingly. There wasn't any feedback on the The Haunted Gallery indenting with no separator approach either. Here again, before too long I'll simply have to assume that this approach meets with approval, or at the least, no one cares to support the no indenting with separator approach. Barring further discussion, I plan on to implementing the no indenting with separator approach with The Spooky Forest, The Dungeons of Doom and The Spooky Gravy Barrow, doing the same plus implementing the "crazy tree" approach with The Haunted Bedroom and The Haunted Ballroom, and implementing the "crazy tree" approach with The Haunted Gallery. --Gymnosophist 21:02, 12 October 2006 (CDT)
        • Maybe we are the only two who cared ;-) As long as the tree somewhere contains links to (and maybe also the names of?)the subadventure pages and that all possible combat/monster encounters are listed on the location page (specifically so all possible monster stats [level, resistance, element, hp, etc.]) so that they are easily all listed on one place for a location for easier references, it's fine to me. I just went with the simiplist (the "best" I could think of at the time, as I knew that chances are it was not final) way as I went through making sure all choice adventures were present on the wiki, and that all messy, mashed pages were split up. I'm not really passionate at all about either, just that to two things I mentioned first are present. I wish more wiki novices or KoL casual players would chime in, since my point-of-view is always skewed, since sometimes I feel like because of working with the wiki, I seem to have most of the game committed to memory, and so do not use the wiki for the same reasons and dont need things shown/organized the way "normal" people do/would. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:28, 12 October 2006 (CDT)
          • Maybe we are the only two who cared ;-) All too often it feels that way! I agree, I often wish that the discussion page was more active. But back to the choice adventures, it was a messy issue, but I'm glad you tackled it. I'll make the changes, making sure they reflect the points you mentioned above. I might nt get to it for a bit though - I'm in the middle of a vacation and am working from a dial-up (!) connection. Yep, "normal" just doesn't quite cover it...  :) --Gymnosophist 04:49, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
        • Hi, I lost track of which style was which, so I couldn't contribute right away. I think I've figured out what you're talking about and I've decided I like "crazy tree" better, because it makes it more clear, in a very visual way, which subadventures are completely avoidable (or forceable, if you do want them) if you make the right choices. (It turns out that my feeling of "that'll take some getting used to", above, didn't take very long.) --Jonrock 15:51, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
        • The way I started with was showing all subadventures on the location page, for example on The Spooky Gravy Barrow, all the subadventures starting with "Heart of Very, Very Dark Darkness" leading to Felonia are all on one page, with "Only occurs as a choice of ..." notes. Of course any of these can be indented (nested) or the dividing lines could be removed, but I was never quite satisfied with it no matter what I tried. The other tree way is like on The Haunted Billiards Room, where all the choices are listed in an outline/tree form. I have no problem with the tree as long (as like I said before [above]), that subadventure names are mentioned and linkified [so one can visit the page, maybe for references/more detail, or for the sheer joy of it ;-)] and that all combats in an area are on the location page. For example in The Haunted Gallery the two Knights are listed on the page. It's nice to have all possible monsters info for a location (choice results or not) there on one page (easier to reference). So more or less, look at The Spooky Gravy Barrow, The Haunted Billiards Room, The Haunted Gallery, and say which one(s) you like best (and maybe look at the adventure/subadventure pages too), and how you would tweak there appearance (indenting, dividing lines, bullets, etc.). I hope this comment can help sum up and catch up everyone else ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:31, 14 October 2006 (CDT)
• Ok, my current version for the adventure (soon to be named noncombat) template, {{test/adventure}}, has three different ways to show a set of choice adventures. The first one indents, which looks ok, but is the more subtle of the three for displaying the hierarchy. Second, shows the adventure blocks nested (we could probably play around with the spacing, etc.) and third shows them as a crazy bulleted tree. They all take almost the same amount of space etc etc. Which do you guys think is the most visually appealing/least confusing/most useful/most clear?--Dehstil (t|c) 19:47, 23 January 2007 (CST)
  • I'm not sure exactly why, but I've always liked choice adventures listed in the tree form (example 3). I guess it just seems the most intuitive to me. Especially now that we're officially separating "choice to combat". It's just nice to see all the results of adventure in a nice compact area. I mean if you're going to use the location page for reference of an area you're most likely going to use it from the highest level choice adventure. Spreading them out more just complicates thing (although I agree that they should have their own page as discussed elsewhere). Oh, one other thing, was it your intention that the bottom border of the template for conditional adventures to show up solid? Personally I think it would look better if all sides (other than left) were dashed. --TheDotGamer 20:40, 23 January 2007 (CST)
  • I'd like to see what the 2nd one looks like with just the borders on the right, b/c having too many borders kind of distracts me... ooh a butterfly... ummm... Is simple better? On, the 3rd one (tree) the subadventures don't really stand out, their links seem the same as all the other ones and seem ignored as they blend in to obscurity, and you loose their pics, but for quick reference, it may be easier for some to read, but it doesn't seem as complete...Hmm. The pic you're using to distinguish choice, clover, etc., instead of it being after the adventure name, I wonder how it would look before it, or maybe if it was used like a bullet indenting the whole adventure? Of course using any of these ideas come with the risk of making it look worse, buyer beware ;-) Just trying to use what's left of my imagination today. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:06, 23 January 2007 (CST)
  • Play around with it and see what you might like, maybe you'll think of even more things to try out while editing. I'm done for today.
    Edit: Also, I'm in favor of number two also if the borders were tweaked in some way; it actually allows incorporation of all sorts of data, like fight stats if that choice results in a monster. The border on the bottom actually makes a string of normal (uncolored unbordered) adventures look good, which would be the majority of adventures displayed, without it..eh you could see for yourself.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:25, 23 January 2007 (CST)
  • I was under the impression that you agreed with me that choice adventures which result in a monster combat should be listed with the rest of the combat adventures? Surely you're not suggesting to list the exact same info twice? I agree that the subadventures don't stand out enough on the Example 3 but with some modifications (more complication) I think it would look fine. I don't know what I was thinking of, but maybe scaling the subadventure pictures down to 25% or something and making the text bold or something. Who knows? Anyway, I'll try to play with the template when I get a little more time. Oh, the other thing, is it non-combat or noncombat. There's some inconsistency but it mostly seems to be non-combat, so maybe that should be used assuming the dash doesn't cause problems with templates. --TheDotGamer 11:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
  • That was before we were able to actually nest the adventure blocks. Now we can which would take precedence over alphabetization for the order of adventures, since readers (well readers like me at least) would not be looking up adventures by name but with other factors in mind. If the result of a choice adventure only occurs as a part of another adventure, it would probably be better to organize said information together rather than disregard that important relation. As for any other relations between adventures (if any, we've already discussed some new section etc), I'd say save that for later since those groupings probably won't need special templating attention. Also, I'd say use the dash. Todo: After we choose a choice adventure scheme, add a superlikely flag.--Dehstil (t|c) 17:00, 25 January 2007 (CST)
  • I don't know how you did it, but you convinced me that the nested look is better. Probably because I went ahead and tried putting pictures in there. I don't think it looks that bad but still. Anyway, in the defense of my previous proposal though, the fact that it only occurs as the result of a choice adventure would surely be noted and linked to. I didn't really mess with the template but I think that if it's nested the inner ones should probably have their left border the same as the other ones. Or thinner. Or something just not so solid. --TheDotGamer 09:26, 26 January 2007 (CST)
• Well, the nested blocks look a bit nicer without the thick borders. I was thinking about doing something with css to indicate the level of nesting for a block to make it easier to read, much like the way nested bullets are distinguished, thoughts? By the way, most of the complex parserfunctions in it will be replaced upon rollout.--Dehstil (t|c) 15:41, 26 January 2007 (CST)
• So, who prefers what method of presenting choice adventures, and if we are all in agreement on that, does the overall template along with the proposals below need revising or is it all good to go? As of now, I say do nested along with what my second to last post in Adventure Sort Order said, which pretty much mirrors theDotGamer's proposal except for the sorting thing he mentioned in "2.1" since the function of an alternate sorting order can now be achieved with coloring. Readers and editors less familiar with the wiki would only be confused by this convention if they do not know it, unless it were explicit (by labeling each subtype with its own ===third level section=== or something) which would not work, especially when the types overlap repeatedly on the same page.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:22, 30 January 2007 (CST)
  • On second thought, I'd be ok with indentation or the crazy tree approach too, so we'll see.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:40, 30 January 2007 (CST)

I RESURRECT THIS DISCUSSION! I'm going through and cleaning up all the location pages with the note fields, and I'm not sure how to handle The Haunted Billiards Room and The Haunted Gallery. Every other area that has choice adventures leading to combat or other choice adventures has them listed as a separate entry with a note such as "Only occurs as a choice in (so-and-so)". Should I change them over to that format? Seems this conversation just fell by the wayside last time. --TechSmurf 18:34, 29 July 2007 (CDT)

• Re-resurrecting... I like the tree method. It wins in clarity, as Jonrock (and probably others... too much text to do other than skim) pointed out above, though it loses in ease of coding. --Bagatelle 21:35, 18 August 2007 (CDT)

Adventure Sort Order

On something of a digression, this is perhaps as good a time and place to discuss the adventure sort order within the location pages. It used to be that all adventures were alpha sorted irrespective of their type (except for ultra rares, which were on the bottom). It appears that when the Combat template was rolled out some 4 or 5 months ago a new sort order was introduced, an order that sorted adventures first by type (combat or adventure), and then by alpha sort. I'm not sure what discussion might have taken place with respect to this change, but the change never made it to the Established Standards. You might say that it's all water under the bridge, but now we have a third type of adventure, the choice type. Should we continue to adhere to the "by type then by alpha" methodology, or should we revert back to the once and future alpha sort methodology? I personally like the pure alpha sort approach - I'm always looking for an adventure, not finding it, and then realizing that, unintuitively, it's further down the page. To make matters worse, there's not even a section header or other identifier that tells you that there are multiple sections within the main adventure listing (not that there should be, IMHO). I'd like to propose that we return to the Established Standard and sort all adventures alphabetically. --Gymnosophist 22:51, 12 September 2006 (CDT)

• I definitely prefer sorting by type. I look at a location page when I'm looking for (a) the general combat difficulty of an area, so I want to see the combat adventures together, or (b) how to handle the choice adventures, so I want to see all of the choice adventures together. (Although I also admit: (c) when I've looked at an individual adventure page and realize it doesn't tell me everything about the adventure and I have to go back out to the location page to get the rest of the stats, but I submit that that's a bug not a feature.) --Jonrock 17:19, 15 September 2006 (CDT)
  • I like the way it is now. I propose that we just add section headers for clarity. On another note entirely, we really should display stat/resistance information on the actual pages instead of forcing the user to go back to the location page....something which is not at all intuitive.--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 22:37, 12 October 2006 (CDT)
    • What is "the way it is now"? Again, we now have a third type of adventure, the choice adventure. These choice adventures are sometimes segregated at the bottom (The Obligatory Pirate's Cove), sometimes at the top (A Battlefield), and sometimes sprinkled throughout the noncombat adventures (The Spooky Forest). Additionally, some choice adventures have combat adventures imbedded in them (like Out in the Garden in The Haunted Gallery). We seem to have agreed that the combats be embedded as a part of the choice adventures, an approach which doesn't lend itself to the sorting-by-type approach. Further, we have more than just the three types of adventures discussed above - there are also clover, one-time and retired (or obsolete/deimplemented, etc. - did that discussion ever arrive at any conclusion?), all of which are accorded special sort treatment. Should we have separate sections for all six types of adventures? --Gymnosophist 03:57, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
      • It seems clear to me that the de facto ordering is "combat", "noncombat (choice collected at end)", "clover", "retired". A choice adventure that has an embedded combat is still a noncombat adventure for +/- noncombat adventure effects, if I understand correctly, so it should stay with the choice adventures. "one-time" is not a type, it's just a note. "superlikely" IS it's own thing, because it ignores +/- noncombat, but I think that can be indicated by a note as well, rather than arguing about giving it special position. There don't need to be special sections for each type--the template style is sufficient to tell where combat adventures end and noncombats begin. The current sections of "Adventures" (combat, noncombat, clover), "In Disguise" (combat, noncombat, clover), and "Retired Adventures" suffice. (In case it wasn't clear, I've really grown to like "retired" as the answer to that discussion.) I'm aware that The Spooky Forest doesn't follow this scheme, I've just been avoiding cleaning it up until the choice adventure formatting was resolved. --Jonrock 15:47, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
        • Well, it seems like the sort-by-type approach is the popular one, so let's go with it. Given this, there are now four issues to be reviewed in detail: 1) The sort order of various types. 2) What should be considered a type for sorting purposes. 3) What types should receive section headers. 4) What the section headers should be called. On sort order (1), I'm so not sure that there is such a thing as a de facto ordering, but an ordering of combat, noncombat (single outcome), noncombat (choice), one-time, clover, ultra-rare, in-disguise, retired works for me, as well as matching the majority of existing sort orders. I forgot about about disguise adventures, but they complicate matters. Actually, we need a two tiered sort heirarchy as follows: 1) Sort by active no-disguise, active in-disguise, retired. 2) Sort by combat, combat, noncombat (single outcome), noncombat (choice), one-time, clover, ultra-rare. On elgible types (2), one-time adventures have been given special sort treatment, and are usually listed torwards the bottom of the active adventures (Outskirts of Cobb's Knob, etc.). I forgot about about ultra-rare adventures, but they're usually at the bottom of the active adventures (Camp Logging Camp, etc.). On section headers (3), I think we should have an all-or-nothing approach. My original complaint was that I couldn't find adventures because they weren't in their "natural" alpha sort order. Upon taking a closer look, it's clear that there was (usually) a sort order in place that depended on the adventure type. What wasn't clear was how to easily find the adventure I was looking for. The implementation of formal section headers for each type (and a TOC) would help matters significently. I don't think you should make users figure out an undocumentated sort order and then make them read the "fine print" of the template type to figure out where the sections are separated. It's a lousy system - I can't put it any more plainly than that. Finally, I think the two-tiered sort heirachy needs to be reflected in the headers. In other words, there should be a primary "Active Adventures (No Disguise)" header with secondary sections for "Combat", etc. --Gymnosophist 17:04, 15 October 2006 (CDT)
        • I'm anxious to get some response on this as it has some bearing on the Infobox Discussion. So please, let's get some feedback. Thanks. --Gymnosophist 00:30, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
          • I have to say I would vastly prefer having (In Disguise) adventures on a separate page; currently such pages are a bit hard to quickly reference. I don't feel as strongly about adventure sort order, but I think having all choice adventures next to each other makes it easier for me to find them. There's absolutely no point in not clearly marking the order in some way, but it shouldn't break up the page too much.--Starwed 16:12, 10 November 2006 (CST)
            • I think that having disguise adventures on a separate page would actually be less convenient than is having them in a properly organized page with a TOC. To get to the disguise adventures, you would presumably first search for the location, then find and click the link to the disguise adventures. It's easier to simply use the TOC or scroll down. Additionally, there isn't too much of a rationale for doing this. You could make a case for creating separate locations for the two mining-in-disguise locations as well as the Laboratory, as all three of these locations show a different location image when you visit there with the appropriate disguise. But for the cases you're more concerned with, A Battlefield, The Hippy Camp, Orcish Frat House, and The Obligatory Pirate's Cove, I can't see any reason or rationale for splitting them. If the reason for splitting them is that these adventures don't occur unless a certain precondition is fulfilled (the wearing of a disguise), then, by the same logic, we should create a separate "location" for just about every clover adventure, as well as separate "locations" for such adventures as Minnesota Incorporeals, Skelter Butleton, the Butler Skeleton, Polo Tombstone, How Depressing, Rotting Matilda, etc. --Gymnosophist 20:44, 12 November 2006 (CST)
              • It's not so much that "these adventures don't occur unless a certain precondition" that is the distinction. The distinction is more modal; I want to be able to keep one page open while I'm in a particular adventuring mode, and not be bothered by stuff which has no relevance while in that mode. If I'm adventuring in the bugbear pens, it's either pre- or post- beating Felonia, and I'm never going to switch back and forth. So at any point in time, about half the page is going to be useless to me, making it harder to get the information I need. Same to a lesser extent with the outfit affected zones; chances are I"m going to be burning a whole string of adventures in one mode or the other, and I'll only need information about the mode I'm currently in. --Starwed 01:17, 13 November 2006 (CST)
              • You have a point on The Bugbear Pens (and The Misspelled Cemetary, which you mentioned earlier), especially as we've already split up The Typical Tavern, which has exactly the same issue. On the disguise adventures, I still have to disagree here. There are strong structural and procedural reasons for keeping all the adventures on one page. On the advocated two-page approach, I'll say again that I think that it would actually be less convenient than is having them in a properly organized page with a TOC (one page load plus a TOC click is easier and faster than loading a page, finding and clicking the disguise link and then loading a second page). The useless half a page doesn't really matter, as the TOC click takes you directly to where you want to be. --Gymnosophist 09:25, 13 November 2006 (CST)
              • Why would more pages make it easier? I'd rather scroll to "switch modes" rather than have two pages on the same thing (but examining slightly dissimilar aspects of it). The separate page scheme is hazard in that it seems single out certain conditions for separate pages with no clear and logical heuristic. Why should disguise versions of a location page exist and not others?

                                  <Location>
                          /                        \
          <Normal Page>                              <Disguise Page>
             /      \                                   /        \
<Normal Section> <Other Condition Section>  <Normal Section> <Other Condition Section>

vs.

                            <Location>
                      /                   \
          <Normal Page>                   <Other Condition Page>
             /      \                         /              \
<Normal Section> <Disguise Section>  <Normal Section> <Disguise Section>

--Dehstil (t|c) 23:00, 13 November 2006 (CST)

I'd say there's a pretty clearcut distinction between a condition which triggers one adventure (like carrying a clover) vs. a condition which branches off into a completely different set of adventures. The Bugbear Pens provide a good example of this; here the split would not be into a seperate disguise page, because that only triggers one adventure. Rather, it would be the pre/post felonia distinction. Maybe it would be nontrivial to write a script which can tell the difference, but I don't think that means that a logical distinction isn't there.

The reason I'm arguing this point is that the greater the information density on a particular webpage, the harder it will be to find any particular bit of data on that page. In such situations where there's a modal distinction between two types of adventures, it presents the opportunity to lower the information density by splitting it up. You might, if you ended up on the wrong page, have to click on an extra link. But the page you're on will be easier to use, and I think that's a trade-off worth making. --Starwed 08:33, 14 November 2006 (CST)

• Well, what you're saying would be true if the page contents were just an undifferentiated mass of information. But what I keep saying, apparently without being clear enough, is that clicking the TOC will take you right to where you want to go! Once you're there, all the information you want is in it's own section! Another way of looking at the matter is to consider how Wikipedia generally deals with organizing data. You'll note, for example, that Wikipedia:Kingdom of Loathing has a total of 17 sections and subsections. The article hasn't been atomized into 17 separate pages. This is because the information for each of the 17 sections belongs in the main page. Similiarly, the location page The Hippy Camp should have all the possible adventures that occur there. This has been a fundamental principle of location pages - they should contain all of the information about that location. The Bugbear Pens might very well be considered two separate locations and might should be split up for that reason (as was The Typical Tavern), but The Hippy Camp is a single location in which different things happen based on what you equip (just as The Haunted Billiards Room is a single location that has something different happen when you adventure there with a pool cue). Not to cut the disguise discussion short, but I'm also interested in hearing if there are any more comments regarding the two tiered sort heirarchy discussed above in my 17:04, 15 October 2006 post. --Gymnosophist 13:14, 14 November 2006 (CST)
  • "Once you're there, all the information you want is in it's own section!" Which would be fine if it all fit onto one screen. But you have to scroll around to find the adventure you're looking for. And (at least for me) having all the adventures on one page makes this harder than it needs to be. I mean, it's possible that this is just my personal problem. ^_^ But I'm relating a difficulty I actually have, not just conjecturing about a possible difficulty others might have. I mean, either way it's not going to be rocket science to find what you're looking for; I just think one way is more "user friendly." (Of course its always a bad idea to decide what most users want based on your own needs, which is pretty much what I"m doing here. ^_^)--Starwed 13:51, 14 November 2006 (CST)
    • If you ask me, I think each distinct in-game zone should have its own page, meaning all areas with distinct "in disguise" zones (hippy camp, pirate cove, frat house, cola battlefield) should have their own page (but be linked with the main page, of course). Itznotyerzitz Mine and the Knob Shaft don't really have in-disguise adventures since the Mining Outfit simply replaces the zone with the special 'mining' page. Pre/post-Cyrpt Cemetary would also get split, but the Bugbear Pens are somewhat of a technicality since the game doesn't appear to actually redirect you to a new zone after Felonia is defeated. --Quietust (t|c) 16:47, 14 November 2006 (CST)
      • Yes, I'm asking you!  :) Historically, the gold standard that we use for determining what a location is and what it's name is is the text incorporated into the location image, not the "zone". That's why, for example, The Casino is called "The Casino" rather than "The Thatch-Roofed Casino" (the name that appears once you go "inside" the casino). We've bent this standard somewhat in order to split up The Typical Tavern and, for reasons of both logic and consistency, should probably do the same for both the pre/post-Cyrpt Cemetary and the Bugbear Pens (regardless of it's "zone" designation). I'm not actually clear on what is meant by "zone" - is it the same as Areas by Number? Itznotyerzitz Mine and the Knob Shaft actually have different images displayed when wearing the mining gear and therefore probably qualify as separate locations. All the disguise locations, hippy camp, pirate cove, frat house, cola battlefield seem to me to be fundamentally a single individual location. I may be wrong in this, but I think we need a pretty clear consensus to change it. --Gymnosophist 18:28, 14 November 2006 (CST)
      • Meh, if you ask me, it's still easier for me to scroll than to follow a link to a separate page when it comes to disguises partly because I can switch back and forth all the time. I guess it's ok for locations that change completely and irrevocably until next ascension because, once the location changes, I won't need the information for the old location for a long time.--Dehstil (t|c) 20:12, 14 November 2006 (CST)
• Hmm, I hate to reply to an issue over two months old but it appears to me that it never got resolved. After reading over most of the comments above it appears that sorting by type of adventure has been established. Here are the issues I see (most of which have brought up) and my views on them:

(1) Page break up. Do locations with different adventure types or conditions get separate pages?

(1.1) The Misspelled Cemetary

(1.2) The Bugbear Pens

(1.3) In Disguise zones (A Battlefield (x2), The Hippy Camp, The Obligatory Pirate's Cove, and The Orcish Frat House)

(1.4) Other

(2) Sections. (Combat, Non-combat, Choice, One Time, Clover, Ultra Rare, In Disguise, Obsolete.)

(2.1) Headers. Should sections be separated with headers?

(2.2) Table of Contents.

My views follow:

(1) Upon first thinking about, I thought that each area should only have one page, but while studying The Misspelled Cemetary, it changed my mind. I now hold the view that each zone in Areas by Number should have it's own page, besides the formerly, test zones, and in disguise areas.

(1.1) I feel The Misspelled Cemetary should be split into The Misspelled Cemetary (Pre-Cyrpt) and The Misspelled Cemetary (Post-Cyrpt) with The Misspelled Cemetary becoming a disambiguation page for the two. Since you'll always only have access to one or the other this makes the most sense to me. Especially since it would be nice to see (on a single page) all of the combat adventures that take place at the cemetary post-cyrpt. Apparently it's been confirmed that Count Bakula occurs both pre-cyrpt and post-cyrpt.

(1.2) Of course, then there's also The Bugbear Pens issue. Has it been confirmed that Pre-Felonia and Post-Felonia have the same area number? Either way, it's not possible to switch back and forth between the two on demand, but my views to split this page are nowhere near as strong as to split The Misspelled Cemetary. If we do do section headers based on combat/non-combat it would probably be easier to split the page though.

(1.3) I think, as you can see in my following comments, that Disguised Adventures should stay on the same page, as it is possible to switch back and forth on demand. With a table of contents it is easy to navigate anyway, and currently (although it may change in the future) all disguised adventures are non-combat, so that wouldn't even have to be said.

(1.4) The only other area with different types of adventures is Crimbo Town Toy Factory which had a different area if Unionize The Elves sign was equipped. Obviously this area isn't of much concern since is obsolete but still deserves some discussion. Personally, I feel that this zone should stay on one page, since 1) It's rather short the way it is, 2) It's (likely) never going to be used as reference for adventuring again, and most importantly 3) It was possible to switch back and forth between the two.

(2) I agree mostly with what Gymnosophist suggested. That is to start with the combat adventures, followed by non-combat adventures (which is what pretty much all pages have already been adopted to do anyway, I believe). The only issue is for when a combat results in from the choice of a non-combat (such as in The Haunted Ballroom, The Spooky Gravy Barrow, or The Dungeons of Doom).

(2.1) I think that the sections Combat Adventures, Non-combat Adventures, In Disguise, and Obsolete Adventures should have headers (in that order) and all be alphabetized within their category with the following exceptions:

• One time adventures should be at the end of Non-combat Adventures.
• "Choice to combat" (including one time) adventures should be listed at end of combat adventures.
• Clover adventures should be after the one time adventures of the section Non-combat Adventures (after one time adventures, assuming they are non-combat... this could change in the future).
• Ultra rare adventures should be at the end of Combat Adventures (after "choice to combat"). This is currently not the way that most are listed but I think it makes the most sense, especially if the sections are labeled.
• Oh, and not really an exception, but choice adventures should be mixed in with non-combat.

(2.2) So that's four sections maximum. As for the table of contents I think it should exist on all locations with more than one section. I don't know if it's best to use the wiki one, or make a custom one though, or even where to put it.

So yeah, that's my opinion on the matter. What does anybody else have to say? Does anybody even use this page anymore?

--TheDotGamer 07:10, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Your proposal sounds good to me. I think it would be nice if some color-coding were added to distinguish different types of adventures, in addition to the section headers, but I'm not sure how to make that look nice. --Starwed 15:04, 18 January 2007 (CST)

Upon further thinking about it, it makes much more sense to "expand" clover adventures into "conditional adventures". I'm not sure if it would deserve a heading (probably not as it would usually only have one or two adventures). Anyway, basically they are adventures that you have some control over. All ten-leaf clovers obviously, but then also That's your cue, and the new adventures that require the Eau D'tortue effect. Probably more too. Since they're (I think) all non-combat they would go after the other non-combats but before the one-time adventures. That way when you're looking at the list you'd see the non-combat adventures that you'll most likely encounter all at one spot. Almost all one-time adventures could be argued as being "conditional" (usually a quest needs to be completed) but I think that order should be: all of the time, some of the time, one time. --TheDotGamer 11:36, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Excellent and well thought out. Colors or styling would actually help distinguish things immensely, along with actually going along with the guidelines listed above.--Dehstil (t|c) 16:24, 19 January 2007 (CST)

Here's my styling proposal, which accounts for the various overlaps in adventure types:

In reverse order of precedence (each bullet is overridden by any applicable bullets below it):

• Section Location (Main Modal Type)
  • Combat
  • Non-combat
  • In Disguise
  • Obsolete
• Border Color (Subtype)
  • Blue: Choice
  • Green: Clover (is modal, but not a major category, so no section of its own)
  • Purple: Quest
  • Red: Ultra-Rare
• Border Style (Occurrence Rate)
  • Dashed: Conditional
  • Solid: One-time
  • Double: Rare

If colored, an adventure's left border is always styled as medium and solid.

Example:

Forward to the Past
	Item Drops: none Meat Drop: 0 Substat Gain: 145-320 (level-dependent) This adventure is triggered whenever you adventure here with a ten-leaf clover in your inventory.

Also, I added a little bumper sticker (mini-button, whatever) to identify the adventure. Forced TOCs would be great because these sections tend to be longer than the typical sections, requiring much more scrolling.--Dehstil (t|c) 17:20, 19 January 2007 (CST)

I think that actually looks very good. I have no objections to your styling proposal. Also, are you saying to force the TOC if there are only two sections like I suggested? --TheDotGamer 12:17, 21 January 2007 (CST)

• Yes, exactly, a forced TOC. After playing around with a few billion spacing/logic/etc schemes, I've come up with {{test/adventure}} feel free to suggest ways to make it even more visually appealing and whatnot.--Dehstil (t|c) 19:43, 21 January 2007 (CST)
  • A minor point about TOC and section headers; I think the sections denoting combat, noncombat, etc. should be subsections of an "Adventures" section, to seperate them more cleanly from Notes and References. --Starwed 12:57, 20 February 2007 (CST)
    • That's fine, but I'm actually indifferent towards this; does anyone else have an opinion?--Dehstil (t|c) 23:08, 20 February 2007 (CST)
    • I too am indifferent in regards to this. I mean, "Notes" and "References" are much shorter than "Combat Adventures", "Non-combat Adventures", and "Obsolete Adventures" so I feel they would be easily distinguished. See The Sleazy Back Alley for example now. But then again, it might look a little better the other way. So, yeah. --TheDotGamer 09:44, 27 February 2007 (CST)
• Is there really any objection to splitting the page The Misspelled Cemetary into The Misspelled Cemetary (Pre-Cyrpt) and The Misspelled Cemetary (Post-Cyrpt)? It seems that the benefits would certainly outweigh the consequences. As was mentioned, The Typical Tavern has been split some time ago. Splitting the cemetary page would allow a more clear listing of adventure that occur pre-quest and post-quest. By viewing Talk:The Misspelled Cemetary it appears that people are sort of confused when not seeing item drops on the current page. --TheDotGamer 20:46, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Well, it's done now. Except for "a few" remaining links. I took care of most of important ones already. --TheDotGamer 12:00, 27 March 2007 (CDT)

RandomlySelect

• We need something like {{#rand:2|5}} which would generate numbers 2, 3, 4, 5 randomly to replace <RandomlySelect>2|3|4|5</RandomlySelect> which currently breaks when used in links or when templating its parameters. Anyone?--Dehstil (t|c) 17:31, 4 September 2006 (CDT)

Tuesday Updates

• The "Tuesday" page has proven to be a handy sandbox for spading out the effects of updates, and a 'first draft' of kol-history to boot. However, as is obvious, not all important updates occur on Tuesday. I think we should rename the page "Updates" and redirect Tuesday there, or just agree to land updates on that page regardless of day.--DirkDiggler 18:19, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • When I first created the page, the aim, if I remember correctly, was to create a quick way for people to glance at what exactly any new content is in as concise a form as possible. Whether the monster queue change is to be considered new content that people care about or an insignificant triviality that doesn't matter remains to be seen. As for page title, I like Tuesday. It gives the page a touch of humanity. --Alpaca (^T/_C) 18:38, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • Just to be clear, I also like the name, and think that all updates that change game mechanics or otherwise deserve spading should appear on the Tuesday page... My inclination would be to make Updates redirect to Tuesday and allow significant game changes on that page regardless of date.--DirkDiggler 20:54, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • I don't care about the name, but we do need a place to keep track of updates. I can't imagine that having non-tuesday updates on the page would annoy anyone. Not having a place for non-tuesday updates, though, is a real problem. Let's put them all together. Now - sensible name or slightly quirky name? It doesn't matter to me. --Shadowless
  • We already have a place to keep track of updates..the recent updates list in-game which is actually copied each day to the kolwiki (what happened this day). If you want up-to-date info on exactly what happened you can head over to the forums. There are not really enough updates (and by updates I mean updates that do not require spading) on days besides tuesday to justify its own page. If something comes along then we can make accomodations for it specifically. (The forums are a very reliable source for everything else considering most info for newest content on the wiki is copied straight from the forums)--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 21:19, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • A comprehensive list of updates, announcements, and events can be found at History of Loathing. Sure KoL "updates" can happen anytime, but "Tuesday Updates" were started a few month(s?) back, and this page seems to stay concerned with those "regular" updates. Even though Tuesday updates are usually trivial (adding a few recipes, items, etc.), they do help keep things fresh on a regular basis. IMO ;-) At least when nothing else new is added to KoL, there are the Tuesday updates to look forward to ;-). --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:24, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • Currently, the History of Loathing is just a copy of the words that are in the updates, whereas Tuesday section can and does contain information pertaining to that event. One particularly pointed example is the September 6th event, which probably should be added somewhere to the game mechanics section, but hasn't been... Also, let me point out that I think the recent updates list is a very poor way for players to keep up with new events in the kingdom, because those new events are frequently hard to find amongst the myriad mundane changes and spelling fixes that are made every day. Also, it can be very difficult to ascertain what has changed over a longer period of time using the recent changes list. I think that Tuesday should be used for the cataloguing of and provision of information relevant to KOL updates. --Shadowless
• Hrm, would this page be a good replacement to TheKolWiki:Current events, which is currently removed from the sidebar for usefulness?--Dehstil (t|c) 23:27, 7 September 2006 (CDT)
  • I always have imagined the current events page to be a documentation of wikitastic events. Maybe it can be something like the current projects page, which right now is essentially unupdated and dead. --Alpaca (^T/_C) 15:00, 8 September 2006 (CDT)
• There seems to not have been any consensus here, although at least the Tuesday page now reflects an "official" position of Tuesday updates only. I'd personally vote for the Tuesday page to contain all updates which affect gameplay. --Starwed 06:41, 11 December 2006 (CST)

Player Hit Messages

Might as well get this started. But this will probably have so much stuff that it will need it's own page. So here it is: Talk:Player Hit Messages. Use this for all research and discussion on "The old, boring "You hit for X damage" messages in monster fights have been augmented with more specific messages based on your weapon and the monster you're fighting.". --Gymnosophist 00:18, 13 September 2006 (CDT)

• Discussion of how to implement the new weapon messages into the Wiki has now begun here. --Gymnosophist 04:01, 14 September 2006 (CDT)

Reference List

I have recently had the idea of maybe setting up a comprehensive list of references in the game. I don't know much about setting up Wiki pages, however. Does anyone have any thoughts on the idea, or want to start a coalition of anal retentive people to seek out and compendiate the references? My idea would be to organize the references by zone, and not actually detailing out the references, but just naming them and having a link to the zone/monster/adventure that contains that reference. Thoughts? Comments? Assasinations? - Pigthecow 09:56, 27 September 2006 (CDT)

Game Mechanics, Bonuses from Effects

In the various Game Mechanics pages (such as Combat Initiative), equipment, skills, and effects are all listed as giving various bonuses. Equipment is listed by its type ("Weapon", "Pants", "Hat", "Accessory", etc.), skills are listed by class (abbreviated) and type ("combat", "noncombat", "buff", "passive"), yet effects granted by items are listed simply as "Item". The problem is, they aren't actually items - they're effects granted by items (where the item name itself is sometimes listed over in the Notes column). Personally, I think it would make more sense to label them as "Item Effect" and indicate the source item in the "Cost" column (rather than simply "Item Loss", say which item is lost) unless there is more than one item. --Quietust 08:50, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

• Perfectionism, it's a lovely sight. Yeah, it bugged me too. On it, starting with combat initiative. anyone got any other pages need changing like this? --Shokwave 08:57, 29 September 2006 (CDT)
  • It's a reasonable point, and one that I think this was originally discussed in the now-deleted forums when the game mechanics pages were first being set up. The short answer is a stylistic one: the game mechanics tables weren't intended to provide exhaustive detail - that's what the source links are for. Further, the game mechanics tables were intentionally set up to be as uncluttered and as streamlined as possible; that's also why the various source types (hats, etc.) aren't linkified, nor are the various notes such as "Mafia prize", etc. That being said, the suggestion of changing the source type from "Item" to "Item Effect" is a good one and should be implemented. On the suggestion of putting a single source item in the "Cost" column instead of "Item "Loss", let's implement this as well, but instead of adding the item to the "Cost" column, let's add the unlinked item to the "Notes" (in part so that the tables remain as compact as possible). The "Item Loss" Cost should be retained. For multi-source effects such as Sugar Rush, lets add "Obtained from multiple items" in the Notes. --Gymnosophist 12:12, 29 September 2006 (CDT)

Breath Skills

I'm puzzled by a couple of things about the suite of Breath skills granted by the hi meins (Cold Breath (skill), etc. from cold hi mein, etc.). Firstly, the skill pages all say that "When calculating damage, the duration is effectively capped at 10". The meins have a fullness of 5, you could eat 3 (or 4) of these, giving you an effect duration of 15 (or 20). Does "effectively capped at 10" mean that there is a hard cap in the calculation? Secondly, there are several notes in the skill pages that indicate that eating a hi mein gives free Moxious Maneuvers to Moxie classes (Sleazy Breath (skill), Talk:Sleazy Breath (skill), Spooky Breath (skill), Hot Breath (skill), Talk:Hot Breath (skill)). Later notes don't confirm this (Talk:Spooky Breath (skill)). Was this changed? Does this work erratically? Does this work different ways for different elemental Breaths? Is it all just a pipe dream? I did some digging around elsewhere but couldn't come up with anything on this. --Gymnosophist 00:00, 1 October 2006 (CDT)

Elemental Item Enchantments

Why is it that of all the various types of elemental item enchantments, the only one that gets colored and linkified is physical damage? If one type is linkified, they all should be (or none of them). Hot Resistance (asbestos helmet turtle), +X to Hot Spells (ram-battering staff), All Spells Cast Are Hot (Codex of Capsaicin Conjuration), etc. should be treated just the same as +X Hot Damage (flaming talons). And the 5-ball just looks... silly. --Gymnosophist 01:39, 2 October 2006 (CDT)

New Trophy Page

I just ran across an interesting discussion over at Talk:Trophy# Page Redesign?. As the discussion seems to have died on the vine (which seems to happen all too often around here), I thought I'd try to revive it by bringing it up here. Basically, it's been suggested that the existing Trophy page isn't very useful as it simply lists the trophies in their numerical order (with acquisition details). A proposal was made, complete with an example, whereby trophy information would:

• Include sublists by the type of trophy:
  • Familiar weight
  • Collecting things
  • Consuming things
  • Permanent skills
  • Specific day/event things (most of which are no longer available)
  • Possibly a section on sign/skill dependent?
  • etc.
• Confirmed trophies that must be bought:
  • Before freeing the King
  • Before ascending
  • Ascension-independent

Somehow, things got bogged down right after it was seemingly decided that there should be two pages, one a detailed trophy page, and the other a Trophys by number page. Let's un-bog this and get it implemented - it sounds like a good idea to me. --Gymnosophist 14:05, 3 October 2006 (CDT)

• My vague wish, way down the list and mostly unrelated to this, is for a page of Trophies By Image so that I can look up what other people have without having to know how they got it in the first place. --Jonrock 15:51, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
  • Sounds cool. Also, I don't see why the image name can't be listed right next to the trophy on trophies by number. The actual summaries as to how to get each one should probably only be on the list that sorts it by type, if this is done, since that's where it'd be relevant.--Dehstil (t|c) 16:01, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
    • Yep, images are a must. Not sure if this turns trophies into a two page deal or a three pager. The filenames should definitely go with the images, but not sure about adding them to the trophies-by-number page - all the other X-by-number pages are short and sweet - just a bare bones listing. BTW, I just added Outfit images to the table on the Outfit page - it looks good (IMHO). Not sure if trying to squeeze in the tattoo images into the Outfit table is advisable, or even doable. Might be nice though. --Gymnosophist 22:39, 3 October 2006 (CDT)
• Looks like I forgot to mention here that I did this a couple weeks ago, and it seems to be working out. I skipped over implementing a detailed "type of trophy" property, but you can mostly get that by sorting on the "Requirement" column, assuming I used the same verb for each of the same type of trophy. Enjoy! --Jonrock 21:48, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

Too Much Information

I am entirely serious at what point do we decide something lacks in enough relevence to be of worth to remove it from a page, particularly an item page, and particularly information regarding bugs that have already been fixed. Similarly at what point do we as human beings decide ok we need to accept the average person doesn't need something expanded upon, even if you can make it funny? Personally I am at odds with both on the Plastic Pumpkin right now, with already fixed bugs in the notes section and a humerous though certainly pushing reference explaining Wet T-Shirt contests. Please save me, your my only hope.--Practitioner of Saucy Arts 22:28, 5 October 2006 (CDT)

Yes, I too wondered about this. There doesn't seem to be a guideline for people entering references. As far as I'm concerned, a reference is a specific tie-in to something else, not "This is a similar situation to this other thing I saw else where." I mean, should we really allow people to add things that "may be" a reference just by similarity alone? At what point did references become "this reminded me of" instead of actually "referring" to things. --Yehman 12:54, 9 November 2006 (CST)

"Encounters"

• There are a few non-adventures that need a category: The stuff leading up to the Epic Hat boss and Naughty Sorcerress (which, discussed elsewhere, is to be broken up), including the naughty familiars and possibly some other odds and ends.--Dehstil (t|c) 15:33, 9 October 2006 (CDT)
  • Soo, where should these go?

    Nemesis

    • The Fly Bend
    • A Door
    • A Lavatory Troll
    • Another Door
    • Another Lavatory Troll

    Naughty Sorceress

    • The Sorceress' Angry Goat
    • The Sorceress' Barrrnacle
    • The Sorceress' Levitating Potato
    • The Sorceress' Mosquito
    • The Sorceress' Sabre-Toothed Lime

The Entrance Cavern (1) and The Entrance Cavern (2) are called locations with each section a different part; should the above be integrated into their respective places like the entrance caverns and such are?--Dehstil (t|c) 22:43, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

• The Epic Hat/Nemesis "encounters" do not use adventures up (except the boss fight), so they seems more like condidtional locations (Like how the Doc or your Guild Guy say different things depending on what you have done or have), rather than non-combat adventures. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:52, 18 October 2006 (CDT)
• Exactly. But what type of action should be taken?--Dehstil (t|c) 12:39, 19 October 2006 (CDT)
  • I was working on an excessivly long post for this but got sidetracked. For now, here's the first part: You've found some of our dirty laundry!  :) Actually, I think that the The Dark and Dank and Sinister Cave is pretty straightforward, as follows: All the Nemesis cave spots should be recast as locations, just as JRSiebz suggested. The Fly Bend, etc. are like the Stairs Up in the Spookyraven Manor - just another location, albeit one with a wrinkle. The Chamber of Epic Conflict should be created and the six bosses put there (similar to The Boss Bat's Lair and other boss locations). The The Dark and Dank and Sinister Cave should be a listing of locations without adventures, similar to The Bat Hole. --Gymnosophist 21:58, 22 October 2006 (CDT)

Adventure Occurance Rates

Over in Yiab's Parseable Area Statistics, we've got an unused treasure trove of information. We should add this information to all the adventure locations, and perhaps to the individual adventure pages as well. I'm not sure of the approach/format this should take, and maybe it should go just in the upcoming Infoboxes, but it definately should be added. With this data, we could (and should) calculate accurate expected meat and experience gains by area. --Gymnosophist 04:47, 29 October 2006 (CST)

Missing Images

I pulled the following back out from Archive 3 because I think we need to add this information somewhere that's more easily accessible to new users and not buried in archives. Perhaps a new Troubleshooting page, with a link from the main page? I was originally thinking on the TheKoLWiki:Searching page, but that didn't seem right, and I doubt anyone really goes to that page much anyway.

I also wanted to add that the reason images get blocked in the first place is because the word "ad" is in the URL for the image. For example the Tofurkey image's URL is http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/images/a/ad/Tofurkey.gif. Interestingly enough, if you click that link, you'll see that it goes to "glacier.coldfront.net". That AdBlock item below might still not work. I've been using simply "@@thekolwiki" in my filterset, and that seems to work fine. It could probably be stretched out to "@@coldfront.net/thekolwiki/images/" as well.

Another completely different suggestion I have, and I don't know if it's even possible, but can the backend be changed to not even use that "ad" subdirectory? --Fryguy9 11:27, 2 November 2006 (CST)

• If you have fixed the issue yourself, I don't see why it is necessary to go through all the work of modifying backend stuff. (Trust me, getting anything done around here is very hard) As JRSiebz said before, that is what you get for using an over-aggressive filterset. I use adblock with my own filterset that I created over the course of one week. I now rarely get any ads, and I have complete control of everything that is hidden.--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 20:22, 2 November 2006 (CST)

For anyone using Firefox and having the problem with missing images, adding this filter to your AdBlock preferences should make them show up again:

@@http://kol.coldfront.net/thekolwiki/images/*

That shouldn't be a link, just copy and paste. Not sure where the best place to put this would be, so I put it here. --cor nocae 21:12, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

• That's what people get for using an over-aggressive filterset! ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:25, 30 August 2006 (CDT)

If you can't see the following images, you should alter your adblocking filters as mentioned above. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 18:23, 19 May 2007 (CDT)

bow	vampire heart	a tofurkey	The Bugbear Pens

Infoboxes

A discussion on implementing Infoboxes is currently occurring at Discussion/Infoboxes. --Gymnosophist 00:38, 18 October 2006 (CDT)

Addition to item pages

I'd like to see either a standard or template for putting inventory locations on item pages. This would help out people with dozens/hundreds of items in a specific inventory area, find items. Yes, I know you can search a page in your browser, but this is an easy thing to do on item creation, and would be a small project to move current items into the new standard/item template.

I would be willing to go through items, and start doing it, but since I don't obviously have every item, it would take more than just me.

Thoughts? --Zeryl 23:44, 27 December 2006 (CST)

• Actually by looking at the type of each item you know were to look for it. Food/Drink, Booze, all equipments, quest items, etc. are obvious. Combat and combat/usables are in (Mostly) Combat Items. Miscellaneous Items contains hatchlings and misc. items. (Mostly) Potions: contains things which grant effects like snowcones, nuggets, powders, candy, etc. The only tricky ones are usable items, which may be in Miscellaneous, as spleen, restorative, or other, or in Miscellaneous Items. It's usually pretty easy to figure out where an item is listed in your inventory if you have any idea about what that item does or is used for. Worst case scenario, you have to check two places. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 00:22, 28 December 2006 (CST)

monobook.js

Is this site set up so that changes users make to their monobook.js pages will take effect? I've tried to change mine on two different skins and it didn't work either time. Related Question - how do I find out what version of MediaWiki KoL is currently using? --Tim4christ17 10:14, 6 January 2007 (CST)

• We are using 1.8.2 currently (Special:Version) and personlized js and css files are currently disabled. I will see if I can get that changed for you. --SomeStranger ^(t|c) 10:59, 6 January 2007 (CST)
• Okay, well I poked the system admin and they brought up the point that ads can be disabled using the js and css files. At this point, it does not seem likely that this will ever be allowed, sorry. --SomeStranger ^(t|c) 20:30, 6 January 2007 (CST)
• There's already adblock, greasemonkey, and usercss for firefox (all of which I use), hence my indifference. Disallowing that technically stops nothing. I guess it would force ads or whatever on the lazier people that don't care (most of us), but determined people will still get what they want...so everyone is semi-happy.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:36, 6 January 2007 (CST)
  • Thanks for the effort...really sad they won't let us change it - I'm going to miss having popups available. Oh, well. --Tim4christ17 04:14, 8 January 2007 (CST)
    • Yeah, I edit on wikipedia as well and I also have a ridiculous number of scripts which I miss =/. --SomeStranger ^(t|c) 08:29, 8 January 2007 (CST)

Pluralses, precioussss...

• there appears to be a default plural for items ending in s. on every page that this appears there is a note that this is a tolkien/jackson reference. could/should this be standardised? --Evilkolbot 12:38, 20 January 2007 (CST)
  • It's definitely not a default plural, but something the devs assign to items arbitrarily - witness that most "[foo] pants" pluralize to "pairs of [foo] pants", while only a select few pluralize to "[foo] pantses, preciousss..." (with "preciousss" varying in length and not always having "..." at the end). --Quietust (t|c) 08:40, 16 February 2007 (CST)

On Reaching Level 30

Now that there are trophies for this feat, I expect I'm not alone in marching towards it. I'm using a volleyball-type familiar, LTS page hints for raising monster level (but I outclass them enough that no thrustsmack is needed to one-hit kill), and using all the other tricks I can think of. For my last thousand adventures, I've averaged 59 substat points (main stat) per adventure. At that rate, I figure I have another ten days of adventuring left for this ascension. Are there any pages here that deal with the issues and strategies involved? --Club (#66669) (Talk) 12:25, 23 January 2007 (CST)

• I don't think that there are any pages that deal specifically with this issue, although it is sprinkled around talk pages throughout the wiki. Perhaps a powerleveling page should exist? Currently, the page "advancement" mainly deals with (and I feel should stay exclusive to) leveling within the first 15 levels. Depending upon how much Meat you are willing to spend you can easily get 300 stat per adventure early on (clover adventures at the Manor). Otherwise, it's worth noting that since you're probably boosting you Monster Level dramatically and fighting at a high level place you will get more stats with a Sombrero. For Muscle classes, cloverless powerleveling is best at The Haunted Gallery. For Mysticality and Moxie classes, The Castle in the Clouds in the Sky. It goes without saying that at either place you should boost your non-combat chance as much as possible and set the wheel/map lourve adventure to your main stat. At sometime above level 20 either way it becomes better to adventure at one of the sign gyms (The Gym for Muscle, The Institute for Canadian Studies for Mysticality, or Gnirf, the World's Sneakiest Gnome for Moxie). Based on the formulas on the Institute's talk page at 600 base main stat (close to mine currently, for example, "early" level 25) I can get between 62 and 125 Mysticality per adventure or an average of 93.5 per adventure. Otherwise a good place to boast stats is Fernswarthy's Basement with a Sombrero. Or The Shore, Inc. --TheDotGamer 20:40, 23 January 2007 (CST)
• I could have sworn there was a "Power Leveling" page somewhere, or maybe that's what I name the custom outfit I use which boosts monster level... or both. On my trip to level 30, I ended up switching to a sombrero because I was boosting monster level significantly (there is a time when using a sombrero is better than a volleyball [of equal weight] at a certain monster level, but all the sombrero vs. volleyball charts aren't the easier to decipher, by the castle for sure). So I was >+100 ML for a while and things were still slow. It wasn't until I used some (about 150?, half of what I had I think) clovers on a stat day in the Manor (which room depends on class) that I jumped from <28 to just <30. Clovers are expensive, but in bulk they do work, but you do loose the added benefit of combat adventures though, like meat and item drops. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 20:45, 23 January 2007 (CST)
• TheDotGamer: Do you really think Castle is better than the Haunted Bedroom for myst-class? Lowest monster level is higher in bedroom, than highest in Castle. And it has the non-combat nightstand options, which are a pretty good stat pull (top 200), though not quite as good as the chore wheel ones (top 275). Also against it, castle has two non-stat adventures. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 18:44, 24 January 2007 (CST)
• According to Strangerer's data you're right about the Haunted Bedroom. Until about level 21 it's best to level up at the ballroom, and then the sign gym (assuming you're the right sign). For Moxie classes though Strangerer proves that the Castle is better than the Ballroom (without clovers/abundance of dance cards). --TheDotGamer 11:03, 25 January 2007 (CST)
• It seems to me that everybody is severely underestimating the usefulness of the palindome for moxie classes. With the proper preparation for minimizing combat adventures, it's something like 45% noncombat, and there are effectively only two noncombat adventures that occur. The war gives either 100 substat to all, or 300 to all every other time, unless the player plans on getting another source of papayas. The tanning is a reliable 250 moxie or unreliable 350. Without spending tons of money on clovers or dance cards, it's probably the fastest leveling for moxie. With a bit of cash for papayas, it's sort of a cheap alternative to using tons of clovers. --Spaz102 16:13, 11 November 2007 (CST)

Damage

I suggest a disambiguation page there. A full page, if possible. --Raijinili 19:44, 7 February 2007 (CST)

Interwiki with tmbw

Hello, I would like to propose a new interwiki link for us. Due to the large (some might say !INSANE!) number of TMBG references in the game, I think it may be worthwhile to include the This Might Be A Wiki (a TMBW-specific wiki) in our wiki links. They have individual pages for several referenced songs where wikipedia does not, and generally provides a more complete fan-perspective view of the TMBG universe. I believe adding them to our wiki linkset would be beneficial to users trying to correlate all these music references the crew drops into the game. If it is added, I propose the wiki foundation standard prefix of tmbw. Thanks. --DataVortex 15:30, 14 February 2007 (CST)

• Just to keep you updated, it's been discussed and approved in staff chat; it should be implemented in the near future. (As soon as someone with SQL access responds)--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 23:06, 14 February 2007 (CST)
• Is this really necessary? Is wikipedia not comprehensive enough to demonstrate a TMBG reference (like all the other ones)? How many other domains are now going to be wanted to be availablized for interwiki links? And we still don't even have interwiki links for the Radio KoL Wiki! And yes, I made "availablized" up. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 23:18, 14 February 2007 (CST)
• There are a lot of places we could use the TMBG one, how often would we need the Radio KoL one?--Dehstil (t|c) 23:26, 14 February 2007 (CST)
• It'd clean up links to DJs because most of them have pages there; some Shows(names) have pages there, too. I swear I had another (better?) reason, but I can't remember it. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 23:46, 14 February 2007 (CST)
• Ok, I've been adding the tmbw's, there's still a lot, but at least people will be slightly more aware that it's available now.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:33, 22 March 2007 (CDT)

Forced TOC?

It seems that some recent change has forced a table of contents to appear on all pages with sections, even if it's completely unnecessary. This looks really weird for places like The Goatlet. Does anyone know whats up with this? --Starwed 03:25, 17 February 2007 (CST)

• See "Adventure Sort Order" above. We're adding section headers for each type of adventure, it looks better when the sections are actually there for the toc to link to. I was hoping we could have come to some sort of agreement on how to present choice adventures before going ahead and reformatting all the location pages.--Dehstil (t|c) 15:25, 17 February 2007 (CST)
  • Hmm, but forcing a TOC on pages with only one section (and I'm sure there are some) is kind of weird. I thought this was going to be done on a per page basis. --Starwed 17:49, 18 February 2007 (CST)
  • Ok, if there are any locations with only one section, then we won't have a toc on that page.--Dehstil (t|c) 17:58, 18 February 2007 (CST)
    • The current TOC placement is just awful, though. It would look better beneath the combat freq message, or perhaps floating to the side below the infobox. And of course, it shouldn't really be part of the combat freq template at all (look at what happens in A Battlefield, for instance); a special delimiter template which held both the clear style and the TOC would be better. (And do we need the frequency info on the page? It's information contained in the info box, but it's also one of the more important pieces of information, I suppose.)--Starwed 02:54, 19 February 2007 (CST)
    • Ok, I fixed the Battlefield. To me they look fine where they are. If you really think it looks awful though, you can experiment on some other toc placements and we could vote or something on which looks prettiest.--Dehstil (t|c) 00:34, 20 February 2007 (CST)

Ok, I've run across enough weirdness while looking at location pages that I really think we need a template for this, rather than hijacking the combat frequency template. I suggest using something like:

<div style="clear: both">__TOC__</div>

It'll be inserted between the introduction and the "Adventures" section on location pages; I can't think of a good name right now, perhaps Adventure Delimiter? (Hopefully someone else can find a snappier name. ^_^) --Starwed 11:27, 23 February 2007 (CST)

How about __TOC__{{clear}} so that we don't get a random and sometimes large block of white space before the TOC. Also, I guess we could remove {{CombatFrequency}}...either that or modify it so different frequencies for different cases may display clearer; thoughts anyone?
Edit: Better yet, let's just manually add the tocs; we've already got everything {{clear}}'ed, unless we want to change {{CombatFrequency}} too.--Dehstil (t|c) 16:13, 23 February 2007 (CST)

• As a side note, could we use a location's alternate title for the infobox if possible? For instance, The Beanstalk (image title) could be "Somewhere Over The Beanstalk" (blue titlebar title) in the infobox. And by infobox, I mean the one I'm thinking of making, which would compile various bits of information for that area.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:56, 24 February 2007 (CST)

Wads left out!

I've noticed (in maximizing your myst, mysticality modifiers mostly) That the wad effects aren't listed. is there a reason for this, or has it just not been added yet? --Applejordan 14:22, 17 February 2007 (CST)

• Well, I don't know if this is why they're missing, but the wads take spleen hits, so they can't be used indefinitely. So there are clarity issues with using 15 (20) of one wad type vs. stacking different wad types, I guess? --Bagatelle 17:03, 17 February 2007 (CST)
• Nope. Flower Power is included (food/booze). --Applejordan 21:43, 17 February 2007 (CST)
• The only reason they're not included is that the page isn't maintained as much as it should be. I've been meaning to get them up to date but haven't yet. --TheDotGamer 20:10, 18 February 2007 (CST)

Sortable Tables

• Once, we sort out something in the wiki upgrade, we'll be able to make all tables sortable, most notably "X (by something)" pages. Does anyone have any issues with this and to what extent do we want to implement this?--Dehstil (t|c) 20:19, 19 February 2007 (CST)
  • I think it's a great idea for most of the Game Mechanics pages, especially the "(by power/requirement/etc)" pages that you mentioned. It would be very nice to be able to use pages such as Bonus Melee Damage and be able to easily see what off-hand items are available all in one section, for example. Also, this may possibly be able to prevent certain pages from being split up in to multiple tables (such as One-handed weapons (by power) as per talk). I just browsed the documentation though so I don't know if it's easy enough to ignore the number in the requirements section and go straight to the stat type requirement. For this there's also the issue of equipment that doesn't have a stat requirement but is a specific type, so it may still be best to separate the page into three tables. --TheDotGamer 20:38, 19 February 2007 (CST)
  • Ok, use "sorttable" NOT "sortable"; the former if do what you want while the latter will use the ingrained skin's version, which will just cause the page not to display.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:41, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
  • I did over the "by power" pages a little bit. Weapons (by requirement) is just a combination of what is listed at melee weapons, mysticality weapons, and ranged weapons, along with a list of weapons with no requirement, so I wasn't exactly sure what to do about that, in case someone without javascript was viewing Weapons (by power). Also, we're missing a melee weapons page.--Dehstil (t|c) 01:52, 15 March 2007 (CDT)
  • This is a very handy feature to have, and is tremendously useful for pages such as shirts where one may want to change the order from alpha to power. Sorting by requirements doesn't really seem to work since I assume it's not being interpreted as an integer. But then again, sorting by power is basically sorting by requirement as well... although it would perhaps be nice to sort by required type of stat. But even for this... most equipment only requires one stat (although there is one shirt that requires moxie). The major exception is with the weapons pages, such as weapons (by power) that you spoke about. So as per Talk:One-handed weapons, do you think that it would be possible to use to parse the requirement type and then sort by the requirement, thus not having to make a One-handed weapons (by requirement) page as well? --TheDotGamer 09:24, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Requirements are now sorted "properly", first by stat type, then the amount for that stat type.--Dehstil (t|c) 18:24, 16 March 2007 (CDT)
• Is there any way to exclude columns from being the sort key? For instance, sorting by the "Notes" column usually doesn't make sense. --DV 15:52, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Yes, it's adding the class "unsortable" to the first cell in that row, but I figured it would only help to just leave it, in case someone does find it useful and functional. Also, with the notes column being the only one without a sort button or sort functionality, it'd seem out of place.--Dehstil (t|c) 20:22, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

The Issue with Templates

Jinya brought up a good point in a discussion over on the coldfront forums; that admin tend to do almost all of the updating on the wiki nowadays. Now, the obvious reason is that there are simply more of us (as Jinya mentioned), but another possibility is the ridiculous number of templates required when setting up a page. Is it possible that this intimidates people from helping out? I understand that in the long run, the templates are much better as it makes it far easier to use the pages afterwards, but is there anything that we can do to it make it easier for the average user who is not familiar with all the templates to contribute? (Besides just throwing information on to a page which is what tends to happen for obscure items....<or not mentioning it at all>)--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 21:00, 19 February 2007 (CST)

• I was considering a WYSIWYG editor specific to our needs, but that type of stuff is in its infant stages for wikimedia stuff. Someone could probably whip one up if we got to it. Wikipedia had a wizard type approach, prompting for various bits of information using normal english (gasp!) in a graphical manner (double gasp!). Other than that, I'm not sure what else we can do.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:21, 19 February 2007 (CST)

Make the search a little more flexible?

This is a fairly minor annoyance, but it hits me fairly often, so I was wondering if it would be possible to change it. As of now, when using the search function, there is a strict need to get capitalization right. Is it possible to make it not do that? Usually what happens is it directs me to a search results page, with what I was searching for as the first(if not only) match. As I said, minor, but after a while, highly annoying. The only exception seems to be that the first word in any search term is exempt from this.

For example, The Castle in the Clouds in the Sky, when searched, takes you right to the page. Sub in "castle", "clouds" or "sky" into that, and it won't go through.

Additionally, since it's sort of on topic, what's the policy on making redirect pages for search terms? Is it something that is only done by an admin if there are a sufficient number of searches with a given term that end in the user navigating to a certain page? Or is it something anyone can add in if they think it's a popular enough shortcut? If the latter, how does one make a term redirect? --Joeisme 21:24, 19 February 2007 (CST)

• We could try something like using Google. I already got a custom engine up.--Dehstil (t|c) 00:23, 20 February 2007 (CST)
  • I vote yes, the wiki search functionality is awful.--SomeStranger ^(t|c) 01:19, 20 February 2007 (CST)
  • I give the Dehstil search engine 3 thumbs up. the the current gives us a bunch of very strict answers and the text matches add in the confusing code. The simple google search is one everyone understands and much more helpful. --Applejordan 21:22, 28 February 2007 (CST)

Date Templates

There doesn't seem to be very much consistency with the way that the date templates are laid out. I found guidelines but they aren't too detailed. Oh, and I didn't even know that that page existed until now, after looking for some established standard for the pages. I guess it's not much of a surprise since it's only linked to by an archived page. What kind of an upkeep page is that ;)

Anyway, most of the time the exact text from the main announcements/trivial updates is posted but sometimes it is paraphrased or changes perspective (from I to Jick for example.) And I know it doesn't matter much but sometimes trivial things are omitted, such as the 11/11 -- it's ridiculous. comment from 2004 (not to mention the formatting wasn't carried over). As for other historical items not related to the development, should the discovery that a ring can be zapped count? Or how about the discovery of a recipe and having a item that's not supposed to appear at Chez Snootée be there? (Also note how the format on that page is inconsistent with the others.) I feel that the documentation of the comet collided with Grimace before rollover may be "worthy" of it's own space, but then again, an official announcement documenting basicially the same thing follows. Also there are things which appear to be official documentation (A bug where putting a slash in a familiar's...) but aren't documented in either the official site annoucements or the trival updates. Not to mention it appears to be a continuation of the previous "official" announcement. Perhaps it came from a chat system update? And sometimes we seem to get a little carried away with minor details. If record things like this every year the template will be so long that it would overpower the main page. Perhaps the History of Loathing pages could be better utilized, and maybe mention what is and isn't an "official" update. I believe that trivial things of the nature described above already exist on earlier History of Loathing pages (although not clearly seperated from the "official" stuff. Please forgive my anal retentiveness. --TheDotGamer 19:48, 23 February 2007 (CST)

• I find the little extras in the daily history of loathing section perfectly bearable. For me, it would not impede upon my ability to utilize the main page's history of loathing stuff; in fact, it may actually increase usability for me by providing additional ventures for me to explore the site. On the other hand, you could remove some of the less relevant remarks on there, especially if it's redundant...also, if some formatting or particularly humorous writing style adds to something, we should use it. Basically, aesthetics call for whether the templates are supposed to be mirrors of the official announcements or are we simply using the occurrence of official announcements to help with our own purpose of documenting when something happens in the game.--Dehstil (t|c) 20:39, 23 February 2007 (CST)

Custom items in Tables, etc

See link for earlier discussion

• I agree with Gymnosophist's post that omitting these would circumvent our goal of being comprehensive, which in my opinion, does more harm than a slightly longer scrollbar does. P.S. Tables ARE getting unwieldy nowadays though; tocs wouldn't help, but getting them to be sortable would be nice.--Dehstil (t|c) 23:32, 7 March 2007 (CST)
  • While we're on the topic of comprehensiveness, should the {{EquipmentByPower}} template include a link to Weapons (by requirement)? Off-hand/accessories by requirement are already on it. Also, how about adding 3-handed weapons either into their own by-power table or adding them into the 2-handed table? --Bagatelle 22:07, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Sounds reasonable. I believe 3-handed weapons act exactly like 2-handeds so they should go on the same table.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:14, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Also, aren't we missing Melee weapons (by power)?--Dehstil (t|c) 22:22, 12 March 2007 (CDT)
    • I've gone ahead and created to page (Melee weapons). It includes all weapons in Category:Melee Weapons, including the custom items. --TheDotGamer 01:14, 18 March 2007 (CDT)
• Now that melee weapons has been created, is the page Weapons (by requirement) even necessary? If one wants to see and entire list of all weapons sorted by requirement they can sort the Weapons (by power) page. Of course this leaves all the "miscellaneous no-requirement leftovers" in one clump, but those aren't even currently sorted on the (by requirement) page. Odds are that the average person would just use one of the three "subpages" (melee weapons, Mysticality weapons, or ranged weapons) if they just wanted that type (or didn't have javascript enabled to view them sorted on the (by power) page. If this is the case (by requirement) should be deleted and (by power) moved to weapons. I guess it should also be noted that the "subpages" are currently defaultly sorted by power, but this roughly translates to requirement anyway. And yes I know "defaultly" isn't a word ;). P.S. It seem seems like no ones responded to your original question. I'll have to agree with you on that one. --TheDotGamer 07:29, 19 March 2007 (CDT)
  • • That's what I was sort of inquiring about, but that page does little harm, and the original reason that page was created in the first place was because of the weapons under the "no requirements" section. Also, none of the other pages are actually sorted by requirement without the help of javascript, even though the general trend of by power is very close. "Weapons (by requirement)" is comprehensive enough that I do not see the need for similar listings in each weapon subcategory, but I see the page itself as potentially useful, even though it's somewhat redundant.--Dehstil (t|c) 22:52, 19 March 2007 (CDT)

Special monster actions

With the most recent update, there were several special attacks/combat actions added to monsters. In some cases, these can be seen on many monsters of the same "class." (Zombies granting half-eaten brains, for instance.) Should these messages be added to every single monster page, as a note on the effect page, or on a new page detailing these types of effects? --Starwed 12:35, 8 March 2007 (CST)

• I'd say a new page, but with a link to the monster's page, where it would give more detail, much like what the entry on the Tuesday page is now (on the new page, would give the effect name, maybe a shorthand form of the effect, but link to the effects page, maybe?). It's just something I'm tossing out there. --Jimfromtx 01:01, 15 March 2007 (CDT)

downloading the skin for this wiki

Is there any way to create a zip of the current default skin for the KOL wiki. If so I would love a copy because I really like the design. Thanks.

• Strangely enough they happen to be available here, which may or may not be a security issue...I'm guessing no.--Dehstil (t|c) 00:18, 11 March 2007 (CST)

preload text

Currently, there are convenient links which help create data pages when they don't already exist. These are very nicely done, but I was always bugged by the fact that the user has to mess around with the noinclude tags. (Because preloading text never includes such tags.)

There's a somewhat wonky way around this:

• First define a template {{includeonly}} which contains only the word includeonly.
• Then, in the preload page, instead of having the <no include> tags, use "includeonly subst magic". We'd replace the current hack of <no include> by the new hack of <{{<includeonly>subst:</includeonly>includeonly}}>

This prevents the subst from appearing when the page is saved, but it will appear when the text is preloaded. The user who clicked on the link would see: <{{subst:includeonly}}> Which, when saved, would finally just become <includeonly>. Obviously, </no include> would be treated the same way.

Is it worthwhile doing this? It seems like it would make creating the metadata pages just a tad bit bit easier, and it doesn't take too much work, which seems like a win to me :) But it's a weird enough method I'd understand reluctance to employ it. --Starwed 23:52, 13 March 2007 (CDT)

• It should be noted that, on 2007/07/24, this was implemented for {{item/data}} and {{effect/data}}. --Quietust (t|c) 15:44, 24 December 2007 (CST)

Idea for Hiding Edits

• I find myself wishing that there was an option to hide "user" edits on the Recent Changes page. Any chance of this happening, or do people agree/disagree with me on this point? I'm not sure how else to bring this topic up other than as part of the discussion here, unless I should take it to the forums.--Dorf 16:39, 14 March 2007 (CDT)
  • What is it that you would define as a "user edit"? You can already mark an edit as Minor (using the checkbox immediately above "Save Page") and then subsequently filter minor edits from the Recent Changes list (as well as set this in your Preferences), and you can also restrict the Recent Changes list to include or exclude a specific namespace (currently can't be saved in preferences). --Quietust (t|c) 18:05, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

I mean user page edits - people adding to their "profile pages" and such - adjusting ascensions, notes, etc. Not a huge deal, but sometimes if someone makes eleven edits to their user page in an hour, it would be nice to be able to filter them out.--Dorf 18:36, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

Select the User namespace, check the "Invert Selection" box and hit go, and it'll filter out all such edits. I don't think there's a way to use this as a permanent pref, but it's something, at least.--Starwed 19:05, 14 March 2007 (CDT)

New page!

This concerns combat items. There is a page of them by function, however there is no page/section anywhere that lists all damage causing items and how much damage they do, unlike with the MP, HP etc. items. So, I made one! It's Combat items by damage. I'd appreciate any help in making it shiny and proper. --Egs 08:56, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

• Two things:

1. I like table, I really do. But I personally think it would be more effective by including it on the combat items by function page. I think a couple other sections would also benefit from a table, but by keeping all the tables on one page we are simplifying things. Anybody else have an opinion?
2. I don't agree with the changes you made to the combat item pages which provide elemental damage. You're method of formatting them "takes away" from the original. For example, when used, the frigid ninja stars text is "...20-25 damage." Not, "...20-25 Cold Damage." Granted I think that linking to the elements page should exist on all such pages, but maybe in as a note or a see also, since I don't believe they can be properly wikified while retaining their in-game color formatting.

Otherwise, great work! I've been curious about a list of combat items which provided elemental damage. --TheDotGamer 09:17, 23 March 2007 (CDT)

• • Regarding #2, it is absolutely possible to use a template to make stuff show up like "20-25", complete with links. Updating {{element}} wasn't nearly as difficult as I thought it'd be, and now it has a parameter "dmg=N" to be used with the uppercase element names (e.g. 20-25). --Quietust (t|c) 09:57, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
    • TheDotGamer: Since you mentioned it, it does look kind of detached on its own. I'll move the table to the by Function page and use it to replace the bulleted list it has right now. Also, I'll change all the formatting I messed with to use the template Quietust improved upon to bring them back into line, with the new improved template ease. (I mainly changed the formatting since I thought that the use of colour tags for the damage seemed kind of bulky, writing-wise). --Egs 19:25, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
      • Heh, I didn't notice Quietust had already updated the individual items pages. Thanks for that. --Egs 19:42, 23 March 2007 (CDT)
      • I was thinking something along the lines of "Familiars by type", which is what the page is way towards being. Viewing Talk:Combat items by function it seems that there's already been a bit of "ancient" discussion on adding data values. --TheDotGamer 17:12, 25 March 2007 (CDT)
      • Also, I should probably note that I deleted the page combat items by damage since the content was moved by the author to the combat items by function (which I in turn renamed to Combat Items for consistency... we only have one listing of combat items besides the category). --TheDotGamer 09:22, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

Familiar Equipment on Familiar Weight

Something that's been getting a little bit of discussion on the here on the wiki deals with the listing of Familiar Equipment with Miscellaneous Effects on the Familiar Weight page. I originally brought up my argument against it a couple of months ago on the page's talk page but due to recent edits there is another similar conversation at User talk:Bagatelle#Familiar equipment. To sum up my (and basically their reasoning too) is that (almost) none of these items even modify what the page is about, Familiar Weight! I mean, we're just listing items which make no mention of any kind (nor provide any sort of enchantment) towards Familiar Weight. We may as well list every other single piece of equipment (hats, weapons, pants, etc...) that provides +0 to Familiar Weight on the page!

The only, and I mean only, drawback I can see to removing the table is that Familiar Equipment is just one big table, so if one wanted to view just the equipment which doesn't provide a weight bonus they have to browse. Then again, this is one of those rare cases where if the table is made sortable by notes this problem would almost immediately be solved (all familiar equipment that begins with a + or - in the notes section modifies familiar weight, except for the penguin-smacking club). Also, as I mentioned on the talk page, the plastic pumpkin bucket, lucky Tam O'Shanter/Shatner, miniature gravy-covered maypole, and wax lips are listed in the section. In reality, the only one that affects familiar weight is the plastic pumpkin bucket. The others just provides item/meat drops bonuses or stat gains. Equipping these items in no way alters the weight of your familiar so they should probably not be included. --TheDotGamer 09:22, 26 March 2007 (CDT)

• I'm all for deleting them for clarity. But I'm curious as to whether the others you mention affect weight when the active familiar is of the aligned type; e.g., if wax lips were equipped on a volleyball, would the weight shown on the charpane actually go up? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagatelle (talk • contribs) on 18:18, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
  • Nope - the "+x Lbs. of [Familiar]" is only an alias for whatever 10lbs of that familiar actually does (2.5 stats for wax lips, +50% meat for tam o'shanter, +25% items for gravy covered maypole, and +12.5% for the pumpkin bucket). --Quietust (t|c) 19:01, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
  • So the plastic pumpkin bucket should be moved to "Compact Table" (it should have probably been there before anyway). --TheDotGamer 20:00, 26 March 2007 (CDT)
• Well, there seemed to be no support for it, so I went ahead and removed it for now. --TheDotGamer 00:40, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

____ of the month?

It came on the update from March 31st, claiming it is "April's Item-of-the-Day... er... Month" while in the store on April 1st, it is "march's monthly special" and April 2nd, "Febtober's monthly special".

What ARE you, bad penguin egg?!?--Applejordan 23:23, 1 April 2007 (CDT)

• Uh, it's still currently claiming it as "March's Monthly Special" (On April 2nd... or at least after rollover on the 1st). --TheDotGamer 23:57, 1 April 2007 (CDT)
• But it WAS febtober's monthly special. I saw!--Applejordan 21:43, 2 April 2007 (CDT)
• Well it looks like it's finally been corrected as April's Monthly Special. I'm pretty sure that at least up until a couple days ago it still said March. --TheDotGamer 00:17, 5 April 2007 (CDT)

Prices

Hello! I was thinking that maybe we could have the average going price of all items on their wiki pages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by EgotisticalMonkey77 (talk • contribs) on 2007-04-13 15:48:03 (CDT)

• This isn't feasible, because such data constantly changes and would require the item pages to be completely dynamic, increasing server load by several orders of magnitude. Isn't the link "View market statistics" good enough for you? --Quietust (t|c) 16:11, 13 April 2007 (CDT)

Multiple pages for things

I'd like to make a suggestion.

I've noticed in lots of cases things will be listed on multiple pages - for instance, how there is both The Boss Bat's Lair and Boss Bat.

What about putting, say, full monster entries on the location pages, then using a template with some sort of javascript built in to hide them? (Sort of like the Hide/Unhide buttons on Table of Contents.)

Kaile (#1074434) 00:51, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

The Wikipedia page for this sort of thing -- Kaile (#1074434) 02:12, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Also, I've noticed there are different pages with differently-sorted tables (eg. food by fullness, by adventures, by stat gain)... what about using single pages, with auto-sorting tables like what Wikipedia uses?

For example, see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_clients

Kaile (#1074434) 00:54, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

The table thing apparently comes with MediaWiki 1.9... however, there seems to be a guide to adding the code to other installations. -- Kaile (#1074434) 01:34, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

If you look a bit further up the page you'll see a discussion on this issue; and in fact, we now have sortable tables. :) --Starwed 02:05, 5 May 2007 (CDT)

Yeep! I need to do my research more ;) -- Kaile (#1074434)

Scroll of drastic healing / Strange Leaflet Quest

I've used quite a few scrolls lately and it seems to me that the scroll will always be rolled back up if your life is in the red. I'd just like to know if this has been confirmed before or not. And I was also wondering if there are plans to update the Strange Leaflet Quest page so it includes the objects over the fireplace and the secret words that are used with them. --Mrbiggg 19:09, 6 May 2007 (CDT) MrBiggg

• Regarding scrolls of drastic healing, take notes for at least a hundred used scrolls and then come back with your results. As for the leaflet, they are specifically excluded as some sort of agreement with Jick and company. --Quietust (t|c) 19:37, 6 May 2007 (CDT)
• I can verify without any doubt that the "always rolled up when HP is in the red" theory is definitely FALSE. --sl1me 03:59, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

• Mrbiggg should take this to the Talk:Scroll of drastic healing page where people have been discussing this and providing numbers. I've given some examples of how often it rolls up when I've got 1hp and am healing more than 1000mp. It clearly isn't always. --Club (#66669) (Talk) 13:57, 9 May 2007 (CDT)

History of changes

• In looking over how things in this game have changed, I've noticed that the Notes sections of items, effects, etc, tend to build up with histories as it evolves. In some cases, the notes get cluttered with the histories, making it slightly disorganized and harder to pick out the important details. As a quick example (and of course I can't find a really good example when I need it), take a look at the seal-clubbing club. Also, we can look at the outrageous sombrero, and see the note, "Was originally tradable", which although not dated, falls more into the history of the item than its current implementation. I believe it is important to retain this historical information, so I am proposing that these kinds of additions be placed in a separate section on pages, perhaps titled "History". What do you all think? --Fryguy9 15:31, 7 May 2007 (CDT)

I completely agree; it's something I meant to propose myself, but got lazy. :) --Starwed 11:39, 8 May 2007 (CDT)

I agree as well and have started doing it as I see pages need a history section. Maybe time to take to Proposed Standards? --Club (#66669) (Talk) 14:51, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

So proposed. --Jonrock 15:57, 31 May 2007 (CDT)

Preceding unsigned comment

I'm regularly seeing these: "--The preceding unsigned comment was added by name (talk • contribs) at timestamp." And sometimes I'm replying to unsigned comments, so I want to know if there is an easy way to add those lines? --Club (#66669) (Talk) 12:38, 11 May 2007 (CDT)

• A quick search in Wikipedia shows that a template can do what you're asking for. Odd it doesn't already exist on the Wiki... --Bagatelle 20:28, 20 May 2007 (CDT)
  • This has been bothering me for a while, so I went ahead and made one up. Action shot! —Preceding unsigned comment added by TechSmurf (talk • contribs)
    • Changed it to just take the name thru the unnamed first parameter, and also added a note that it should always be substituted. There's some way to make templates throw big warnings when you don't subst them (Wikipedia does this for the "prod" templates so it always gets the date added), just need to go look it up. --Quietust (t|c) 00:36, 12 January 2008 (CST)

I have to wonder: what's the point in requiring it to be substituted in? It seems substantially more compact to leave it un-subst'd, and can actually be learned through regular talk page use in that form. Or was it not meant for non-op users to be really aware of and use? If so, I'll note that we (or at least I) can use it, and last I checked I was on the "peon" level of wiki powers. --Flargen 17:26, 27 January 2008 (CST)

• I forget where Quietust addressed that, but it was something to the gist of that substituting the template adds the actual text directly to the page, allowing for editing at a later date, and so fiddling with the template doesn't change it. Or something to that effect. --TechSmurf 17:30, 27 January 2008 (CST)
  • I was aware at this point of what using subst would do, thanks to EvilKolBot. I'm still not really seeing the benefit, though. Editing of what? Changing the template lets you change how it displays on the page, and the original poster can still come in and make a more appropriate signature or add further commentary. If there's a fuller explanation as you suggest out there, let me know if you find it. Guess I'll see if I can search it up in the meantime. It's not the biggest of deals, but this is going to bug me until I know. --Flargen 17:36, 27 January 2008 (CST)
    • If you want a solid answer, you'll have to ask Quietust. He's the resident template guru. --TechSmurf 18:03, 27 January 2008 (CST)
      • Forget about the substitution stuff - it was a misguided attempt to adopt a policy from Wikipedia. --Quietust (t|c) 21:48, 27 January 2008 (CST)

I'm glad a template has been added for this, but could you have linked to the unsigned template or given usage directions here? (Usage directions are available on the template page, for those following along at home.) --Club (#66669) (Talk) 13:59, 28 January 2008 (CST)

SVG images

Are SVG images supported here? I didn't see any, so I was just curious. Thanks! TimRem 23:27, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

• Perhaps a better question would be why one would need scalable vector images on a site whose primary purpose is to depict content from Kingdom of Loathing (which uses nothing but GIF images)? --Quietust (t|c) 23:39, 12 May 2007 (CDT)
  • You never know, you could want to make a diagram of the elements or something. I was just wondering if they were supported, I wasn't planning on uploading any. TimRem 23:45, 12 May 2007 (CDT)

Talk Policy Question

So I just noticed that a user I've never noticed before deleted several comments from a talk page on my watchlist. This deletion doesn't cover anything important, but it also isn't stuff that put in by that user. This was done without even a description in the change summary.

I'm not sure if the wiki has a policy on this stuff, but it feels very wrong to me. Delete your own comments from a talk page? Okay. Delete the followups to your own comments? Very iffy. Delete someone else's comments and followups? Not okay. (Well, moving into an archive page is fine.) Also deleting not-allowed content would be okay (non-KoL or the forbidden leaflet words). Further, deletions by the "sysop"s would be okay. This edit was none of those.

Is there a policy on this anywhere? --Club (#66669) (Talk) 19:47, 15 May 2007 (CDT)

• There aren't many official policies on this wiki, but I agree that this should be one of them. --Quietust (t|c) 20:15, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
  • Just curious, what page was it? TimRem 22:01, 15 May 2007 (CDT)
    • it was KillerRabit, on the Useless Powder talk. a previous poster had asked if it was ok to delete their own comments, i guess KR was just being helpful. i'd have to agree that deleting other people's comments should be discouraged. deleting your own responses could, though, leave a confusingly one-sided conversation. i'd have to say let everything stand, if it's dumb then that's still what you said. would you revert an edit which changed a comment so thoroughly that it was as if the user had deleted it and put in a new one? after a conversation was finished? --Evilkolbot 02:21, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

Softcore

Shouldn't there be a page just for softcore (like hardcore has its own page), instead of just redirecting to ascension?--Logiedan 15:48, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

• just as there's no "north of the border," there isn't any such thing as softcore. everything that isn't hardcore is just the game. or that's what i remember jick's view on the subject was on the radio yonks ago. i have to agree. --Evilkolbot 16:21, 16 May 2007 (CDT)
• The term "softcore" was created entirely by the players as a sort of "opposite" to Hardcore. On the Ascension form itself, "Hardcore" is just a checkbox that you select, so not selecting it just leaves you with a non-Hardcore run. Additionally, the old Ascension History page would label each ascension as either "Normal" or "Hardcore", followed by the dietary path of "No Path", "Boozetafarian", "Teetotaler", or "Oxygenarian". --Quietust (t|c) 16:55, 16 May 2007 (CDT)

New use for item data--should I worry about server load?

I started experimenting with templates, and I have currently set Template:test to pull both the image and a link to an item, using the now-stable Data pages, for use in tabular summaries of items. In my opinion, these sample pages look GORGEOUS:

• Sandbox/Meatsmithing
• Sandbox/Super-Advanced Meatsmithing
• Sandbox/Armorcraftiness
• Sandbox/Ninja pirate zombie robot head

However, I'm not sure whether this is a completely appropriate use of server load, because it's a quite really large amount of template evaluation for large pages like these. One obvious fix is to split the template into Template:StackImage and Template:InlineImage so that the "nobr" property doesn't have to be evaluated. What do people think? --Jonrock 22:05, 22 May 2007 (CDT)

'nodelete'

In the rollover page, it mentions certain things can get your account marked as 'nodelete'. Is there a list of these things anywhere, and if not, could someone make one? Thanks. TimRem 21:24, 25 May 2007 (CDT)

• I think it's just all Mr. Store items. A couple of non-Mr. items may have set the flag when they were first released, but I think those were bugs that were fixed. --Bagatelle 11:18, 26 May 2007 (CDT)

Alphabetising

1. what with the new adventures, i was just alphabetising the shore, when i noticed it was in strict alphabetical order (A Telemarketer, An Ostrich, Armpit, Teasmades, The Astronaut, Xylophones). since i believe we use dictionary order here, i used that. (Armpit, The Astronaut, An Ostrich, Teasmades, A Telemarketer, Xylophones) was i wrong?
2. similarly, while updating whitey's grove the alphabetising was split into invisible sections (Combats, Choices, Non-combats). should these sections be made explicit, as with some other pages? is this a project? --Evilkolbot 13:04, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

• Yes it was, but work on it sorta died down. Also, we were thinking about, at least I was, adding more information using a more visual approach: {{test/adventure}}. Other than that, I sorta disappeared. So ya, dict sort and section headers were both "good things".--Dehstil (t|c) 17:52, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

• ok, i'll work through Safe Adventuring locations (it's cleaner than Category:Locations) checking all the location pages in order.
• proposed ordering of adventure sections:

• combats
• non-combats
• choices
• one times

• should quests (like that hammer thing in the alley) influence the order at all?
• also, isn't there a Choice template? the Established Standards: Location Pages page doesn't mention it. --Evilkolbot

• ok, when i say i'll do it i don't mean now because i'm off on holiday. oh well. --Evilkolbot 15:07, 14 June 2007 (CDT)

• Towards the bottom of Adventure Sort Order is what we had and above that was why. Basically adventures would be divided into relevant "adventure sets" such as the adventures you'd get with this disguise or adventures that don't happen anymore because those divisions seemed to be the most useful when looking up stuff.--Dehstil (t|c) 11:11, 15 June 2007 (CDT)

Main Page Featured Articles

I would like to see some more articles added in to the rotation, it is always like the same 5 or so articles and they are getting boring to look at.

Actually, I just did that yesterday. I added 5 more featured articles to the existing rotation of 7. They won't start coming up for a few days, however. --Prestige 20:40, 13 June 2007 (CDT)

NeedsNS13Update template

Obviously NS13 will bring a lot of changes. I thought a template other than the NeedsContent one might be useful specifically for these changes, and so took a stab at it here. (Obviously the wording would change once the event actually happens. :) )--Starwed 16:06, 16 June 2007 (CDT)

• Actually, somebody else already made one. We'll need to decide which one to keep and which one to delete. --Quietust (t|c) 16:41, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
  • Needless to say, I would be disappointed if my clever-if-I-do-say-so-myself construction of 11+2 using existing artwork were to be cast aside. I'm really not sure that I picked the right names, either for the template itself or the Category page name to put tagged pages into, so feel free to fix those if there is a better preference. --Jonrock 17:30, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
  • This one feels a little bit more flexible, with the option to add comments, or not. On the other hand, it may be too image heavy, with three relatively big images... Even if the XI+II is clever, and funny! --Worthstream 17:39, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
    • The name of the template and its contents are two different things - decide what the template will look like and what it should be named, and the rest can be taken care of. --Quietust (t|c) 18:14, 16 June 2007 (CDT)
    • The original version I posted also had the option to omit the comment; when Quietust went through cleaning up similar templates, it got removed. (The difference is a single character). As said above, the page name and content are really separate things. The reason I chose the name NeedsNS13Update, is that it seemed in line with how similar templates were named. --Starwed 00:32, 17 June 2007 (CDT)
    • I can see where this is going: nowhere, fast. I say use either if you want; it's only temporary and barely matters as long as we use at least one. Personally I prefer the simpler, more compacter one.--Dehstil (t|c) 00:44, 17 June 2007 (CDT)

Tower Monsters Hints

Any (hopefully good) ideas on where to put the hints given by the monsters up The Sorceress' Tower after you've lost to them a bunch. Notes? Tweak battle template? Plus we need to get them to begin with ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 20:42, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

There are a lot of conditional results and messages for combats, adventures, and locations now, so I'd be most comfortable using an across-the-board look for "if-then" situations which is, underneath, dirt-simple to edit. I saw that a bullet and italics was being used elsewhere, so I stole that idea to use for The Bounty Hunter Hunter's Shack. I see it is also in use for remains of a jilted mistress and The Clownlord Beelzebozo and elsewhere. For a tower monster, it could look like this:

• After losing for the third or fourth time:

I don't think you're going to calm it down, so maybe it's best to just keep it hemmed in for everyone's safety.

• After losing for the fifth time or more:

Have you tried using a barbed-wire fence, from the Large Donkey Mountain Ski Resort?

• When a barbed-wire fence is used:

	Good thinking!

You gain 40 <substat>.

I'm also a fan of just using one or two indents to reflect messages that are actually centered in the game, because working around the centering tags annoys me, but I could actually go either way on that. --Jonrock 21:24, 30 June 2007 (CDT)

• Dammit...I just edited the concert pianist before reading here. Oh well. Since we've not decided yet, I have another alternative there, namely adding another section to the battle template called "Hint Messages". Although, personally, I like Jonrock's style above. I also noticed someone tried a third style in the notes of the Beer Batter, which is similar to Jonrock's style above. --Fryguy9 10:47, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

The Orcish Frat House + The Hippy Camp = Horrible Mess

The Orcish Frat House and The Hippy Camp are unwieldy. They should be separated in multiple pages (especially when the complete set of adventures changes!), possibly like:

• Orcish Frat House - With The Orcish Frat House and The Orcish Frat House in Frat Boy Ensemble. (also is post-war not bombed back)
• Orcish Frat House (Verge of War) - includes in War Hippy Fatigues and? Filthy Hippy Disguise
• The Orcish Frat House (Wartime) - for messages and the boss (in War Hippy Fatigues), and the shop (in Frat Warrior Fatigues)
• The Orcish Frat House (Bombed Back to the Stone Age)
• The Hippy Camp - With The Hippy Camp and The Hippy Camp in Filthy Hippy Disguise. (also is post-war not bombed back)
• The Hippy Camp (Verge of War) - includes in Frat Warrior Fatigues and? Frat Boy Ensemble
• The Hippy Camp (Wartime) - for messages and the boss (in Frat Warrior Fatigues) and shop (in War Hippy Fatigues)
• The Hippy Camp (Bombed Back to the Stone Age)

Right now the pages are extremely hard to navigate and read. Also, almost all of the "Occurs in " lines on all the adventures' pages are inconsistent and should be to the appropriate pages. Also many pages link to redirects, which they ideally shouldn't. And I still think Mysterious Island Quest should be renamed to Island War Quest, it's more specific since a lot of questy stuff happens on the island.--JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 16:51, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

• A new page could be created for each time an area's number changes. Hmm. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 20:13, 13 July 2007 (CDT)
  • Personally, I think "verge" sounds better than "cusp". And I agree that these desperately need to be split up. So desperately, in fact, that I'm going to do it right now. --Quietust (t|c) 16:24, 23 July 2007 (CDT)
    • And now it's done. Now all it needs is a bit of polish, and we should be good to go. --Quietust (t|c) 22:11, 23 July 2007 (CDT)

Obsolete Items/Effects

We have Category:Obsolete Adventures. I think it would be nice to have a category for obsolete items and effects as well. Off the top of my head, we've got scroll of turtle summoning, turtleslinger, and old Sauceror potions (and their effects). That's already more members than Category:Bows. Assuming this is seconded, would we then want to:

1. De-apply the old categories so they don't show up in those respective pages?
2. Remove them from Game Mechanics tables like Muscle Modifiers?

{{kolimage}} improvement idea

I've got an idea to improve {{kolimage}} somewhat, such that it will allow automatic tracking of images whose wiki filenames do not match their in-game filenames - split the image filename itself from the path (so that you end up doing, for example, {{kolimage|otherimages/diary|diarybottom.gif}} instead of {{kolimage|otherimages/diary/diarybottom.gif}} - all in-game images are in subdirectories of images.kingdomofloathing.com, so this wouldn't be a problem) and then use that to compare against the wiki filename so it can conditionally drop the page into a special category (and perhaps with a "renamed=1" parameter to differentiate between images which were uploaded by an inexperienced wiki user and those which were intentionally renamed according to procedure). There's over 4500 images on the wiki right now, so it's a perfect candidate for my bot to handle. Comments? --Quietust (t|c) 22:20, 14 July 2007 (CDT)

• Made a few clarifications, and still very much awaiting comments (since this is a rather big change to the template and will result in a lot of extra load on the wiki during the changes, I'd prefer consensus on exactly how we're going to handle it before proceeding). --Quietust (t|c) 12:11, 18 July 2007 (CDT)
• Anything that detects errors automatically is gold in my book. I can't advise on the server load issues, but surely you don't have to do all 4500 edits at once? If the issue is the volume of changes, then scheduling them during low-traffic times (say a late night or over several late nights in North America) would also help. --Bagatelle 20:26, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

In-Game Hover Text

Someone added some in-game tooltip text to the A Secretive Mason page. As the unofficial official keeper of the KoL minutiae, should game alt/tooltip text be included somehow? --Bagatelle 20:26, 19 July 2007 (CDT)

• A standard phrase for quoting tooltips would be great, but there's no need to put it anywhere other than Notes. --Jonrock 20:03, 20 July 2007 (CDT)
• I think that A Secretive Mason is the only thing with an interesting/conflicting alt. image text. I think maybe the Grimacite Site/Construction Site/Observatory/Hahnk's/or Comet had one for a while. I think I need to stop starting sentences with "I think". ;-) --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:19, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Job Queue

I know the job queue is meant to spread out page updating (like when a highly used template is updated, but it seems to kill the wiki for 10-15 minutes with database errors (table locking and/or "job popping" deadlock errors). I think the rate at which jobs are done is faster than the usual load of the wiki which the server(s) can handle. I think that the rate needs to be slowed down and spread out so that it does not interfere with standard traffic. According to the metawiki, $wgJobRunRate probably should be added and/or changed in LocalSettings.php. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 00:16, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

• Actually, the problem isn't the rate at which the job queue runs tasks - when I was editing {{kolimage}} last night, the wiki stood up just fine, until it got down to 100 or so jobs - at that point, the entire wiki died for 10-15 minutes until the deadlocked database transactions finally timed out. This happens consistently, nearly every time I edit a template used on over a hundred pages, and it leads me to believe that either the wiki is misconfigured or its job queue code was broken from some sort of modification. I've made similar template edits on other wikis and have never seen this problem before, so there's something special (and by "special", I mean "wrong") with how this one is set up. I suspect the problem is not in the job run rate, but that there seems to be a threshold at which point the job queue decides "oh, there's not that much left in the queue - I'll do all of these at once", and several other people load pages and they try to do the same thing, resulting in a deadlock. --Quietust (t|c) 21:06, 20 July 2007 (CDT)

Software Update?

It appears that you can no longer search for articles containing a percent sign. Is this a deliberate change, or an unintended side effect of updating something? --Jonrock 10:56, 30 July 2007 (CDT)

• I keep trying to answer someone in the talk page for Yeti_Protest_Sign, but I get an http error:
  Method Not Implemented
  POST to /thekolwiki/index.php not supported.
  I don't get this editing other pages. What's going on? --Club (#66669) (Talk) 13:31, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
  • You can get the same thing if you try to edit Choice Adventures by Number. Apparently, when the server sees the word "Finger" in "Finger-Lickin'... Death.", it decides it doesn't like it. It sounds to me like somebody tried to update the squid cache servers and failed horribly. --Quietust (t|c) 13:39, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
    • ...and now it all makes sense. Examining the response headers from any wiki page reports that the wiki is running through Squid 3.0.PRE4, a pre-release beta version of the Squid cache - the latest stable version is 2.6. Why on earth is Coldfront using a BETA version of Squid in a production environment? --Quietust (t|c) 13:45, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
      • Hmm. Maybe that's why White Wednesday is blank, too? (It is completely blank in my browser, but turns up a 500 "Internal Server Error" in a debug tool I have.) (repost after edit conflict) --Club (#66669) (Talk) 13:48, 3 August 2007 (CDT)
• I just ran into the unimplemented POST error. This is killing me/us. Who knows who to contact about server issues? --Jonrock 13:59, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
• Yesterday I also had an unimplemented POST error, but only for one page (the mint-condition wand.) --Starwed 14:03, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
  • The problem has been tracked down - apparently, Coldfront was getting some hack attempts and responded by installing ModSecurity for Apache2. Unfortunately, ModSecurity's filter set was just a bit over-zealous. Each of the different failure types was caused by a different rule (blank page on White Wednesday, 400 Bad Request on anything with a percent sign, 501 Not Supported when saving pages with certain links), and FrostByghte has now disabled the ones in question. --Quietust (t|c) 16:23, 4 August 2007 (CDT)
    • Super! Thanks, Frostbyghte! --Jonrock 02:06, 5 August 2007 (CDT)

Whiskey Jack's Magical Bottle

aint sure if its the right place to post this.. found it on a player.

picture:

description: Whiskey Jack's Magical Bottle

This bottle was blessed by the Deep Fat Friars to endow the drinker with great tolerance to all alcohol. Not only will you be able to drink more, but drinking increases your power when in possession of this amazing artifact. Remember, don't drink and drive your meat car.

Type: accessory

Enchantment:

Maximum Drunkenness +10

All Attributes Increase with Drunkenness

+3 MP to use Skills

Combat Initiative -20%

• This is player-created content, displayed on an opt-in basis, and is not hosted by the creators of this game. Neither Asymmetric Publications nor the creator of this script is responsible for the content of this item.

--Myst44 06:36, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

Um, didn't you read the note there? I'm pretty sure this is created by a script... --Starwed 06:45, 8 August 2007 (CDT)

Yup. Specifically, the OMG teh Kilt script. I recognize the disclaimer. Of course, the person who posted this should have recognized it too, because you have to install that script to see any of the user-created items. -- Old Ned 00:19, 10 August 2007 (CDT)

Things that Slightly or Hardly Need Updating at All

I think the Established_Standards:_Data_Pages needs to be updated to reflect the new Template:Location/meta with Bad Moon, also the Spooky Forest needs its second Bad Moon adventure in the page and metadata but I don't know how to edit any of those things! -Xtrat 2:28, 19 August 2007

Wandering through the Wiki lately, I've noticed that several templates could use some touching up:

1. {{part}} -- Some monsters' hit messages look like they reference the same body part more than once:
   • Lord Spookyraven: He picks up one of the candles from the altar, and blows on the flame. It grows into a huge torrent of fire, burning your <part>. Hot <part>! Hot <part>.
   • Lobsterfrogman: With a did-a-chik and a snapping of his mighty pincer, he severs your <part>. Ow! You really liked your <part>!
   • Is there some way of updating this easily?
2. Various location pages (e.g., Orcish Frat House) have had their combat data migrated to Data:. Wouldn't it be nice to have edit links on the location pages for this? A new editor would be totally mystified about how to change the data (new Meat drop range, for example), and it's kind of cumbersome even for a veteran.
3. {{INFOBOX DualLocation}} -- Needs to be updated to enable listing of Bad Moon/Semi-Rare. Both it and {{INFOBOX Location}} should probably be updated so that the BM/SR adventures are shown when the metadata have been added (e.g., Data:Harem has had the SR adventure saved, but the rendered Data: page doesn't display it). Both also have an extraneous slash on the Quests field (e.g., Itznotyerzitz Mine).
4. Would an "MCD" template be useful (arguments would be setting/effect, I guess)? The affected pages look clunky to me (see The Boss Bat's Lair/Boss Bat).

--Bagatelle 19:45, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

• 1. No idea
  2. The location pages aren't synced to the data pages (for individual monsters) at all yet, AFAIK. The Combat template info is all inline in the page. I'll add an edit link to the infobox which pops up on monster pages, though.
  3. • I'll go ahead and update the dual Infobox template, to mirror the recent development of the regular Infobox. (I intended to do this a while ago when I updated the regular infobox, but got distracted and forgot. :) ) I'm not going to update the data, though, at least not anytime soon.
     • To be honest I think the Quest and Unlocks fields overreach a bit; that information is hard to encapsulate in an infobox. Thoughts?
  4. Perhaps there should be a special boss infobox, which would include MCD information and the like?

--Starwed 21:42, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

• • 1. Hm, I wonder if there are any battle messages where two distinct parts are used, one of which is repeated...
    2. Actually, some of the Location pages have had applicable data moved into the Data: space. If you edit Tower Ruins, for example, all you'd see is name/stat/level, even though the rendered page shows Meat, drops, etc.
    3. Hm, good point. A lot of the Unlock info is quite wordy anyway. I'd vote to drop 'em.
    4. Now that you mention it, perhaps a special drop entry for BHH items/one-time items would be nice too. Some of the battles that currently have Data: (e.g., Orcish Frat Boy (Pledge)) have the BHH items starred, which makes perfect sense when using {{Combat}} because of note fields, but the star is totally out-of-context when displayed in the infobox used by {{Battle}}.

--Bagatelle 16:51, 30 August 2007 (CDT)

I created bounty and quest fields for INFOBOX_Combat, and created a subsection for drops, much like I did for Special Adventure in location infoboxes. You can see what the result looks like here: Orcish Frat Boy (Paddler). I let the regular drops be two columns, since otherwise it tended to look rather cramped, but I'm not convinced that my way is any better.  :) Keep in mind that it's easy to have bounty drops and regular drops on the same line of the infobox, even if they're in different fields. Then an asterisk or something like: empty aftershave bottle^BHH can be done.--Starwed 02:41, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Deletion of Page: Newbie of the Day

At roughly 7pm GMT I created apage about an award that myself and a fellow player run for the benefit of newbies in /c newbie.

The page explained the origins of the award, along with a list of winners and donators. Twice I mentioned an in game clan due to their heavy involvement with the award.

To this end the user Evilkolbot decided to delete it for the fact it was apparently a clan ad for a not-so-famous clan.

As has been stated before I did not intend this page to be a clan ad. The intention was for it to be a page to describe the award to players who may be interested. The article mentioned the clan twice, without links to the website/forums etc. Never once was there an implication that people should join the clan mentioned.

So. I open it up. It was quite obvious the page was NOT designed to be an advertisement, but a factual piece on a long running in-game initiative, that happened to mention a clan due to it's involvement prior to the creation of the page --King Fog 14:37, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

• The wiki is not a repository of any and all events that happen in KoL are catalogued. We (and by we, I mainly mean the admins) have to deal with enough rubbish that gets thrown on here. If you want to put up personal info, get a website or edit your user page. Im not sure passive aggressive bitching at evilkolbot is really the way to go about things either. --Eugene 14:42, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

• I understand and respect the work that the wiki admins do, however I have come across more pointless stuff on here, than one article describing something that's been a huge success. And aye, maybe putting it on my user page might be a good idea... But how many people actually look at user pages? By putting it up as a legitimate article, linked to and from the correct articles, people will actually be able to see and learn fairly quickly, rather than have to trawl through back pages to find stuff. And if I appeared to be bitching, well... I didn't mean to sound that way. However I do find it somewhat annoying to say the least that the site specifically designed to catalogue all sorts about KoL, will not accept one small article about something that means a lot to quite a few players

For now, i'll place it in my user page, for now.

--King Fog 17:27, 21 August 2007 (CDT)

If it is an attempt to publicize an award, I think it should be left up. I am a KoL Wiki newbie and my opinion probably does not count for much, but I see Noblesse Oblige mentioned all over the place (and I think it is appropriate, and I do not believe these mentions are clan advertisements). More than that, I wanted to see it. Oh, yeah--I can go to a user page. That's handy [NOT]. --Kencomer 04:25, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

• welcome to the wonderful world of kol. the wiki is the primary secondary repository of knowledge about kingdom of loathing. if users or clans are mentioned in the main space it is because they have made a very substantial contribution to the game. handing out stuff in /newbie doesn't, in itself, cut it. there are places to advertise awards and such. there is a whole forum (which i can't get to the link for just now) dedicated to games and giveaways. the best place to advertise a clan competition for newbies would be to post a link in /newbie to the relevant page on the clan website. howsoever, king fog appealed to jinya and the answer was no, so that settles it. --Evilkolbot 06:26, 4 September 2007 (CDT)

Edit Warning Text

According to chatting going on at Talk:Pride, that particular Bad Moon passive can lower adventure gains below the normal minimum bound from food (see QuantumNightmare's point made 23:35, 30 August 2007 (CDT)). The warning message prior to committing a page edit (check for Opossum/stat day/milk/munchies/etc) should probably be edited to include this. Related... should the warning text be made more eye-catching? Some people seem to miss it. Adding images, moving the warning text closer to the "Save page" button (it's got copyright stuff sandwiched in between right now), or changing the "Save page" button's text to "Save page -- It's not a stat day/etc" might be a more effective deterrent. --Bagatelle 20:22, 31 August 2007 (CDT)

Any Chance of a Better Search Engine?

I know it's no great trouble to make redirect pages, but we shouldn't have to make them for simple capitalization issues, hyphenation, and the like. Who do we have to bribe/kill to get one that'll remove the need for the redirects? --AltyMcAltAlt 03:16, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

The Mediawiki community or use google search. --Kari 07:11, 14 September 2007 (CDT)

History of Loathing vs Today in KoL History

The "Today in KoL History" pages are usually kept up to date more than the History of Loathing pages are. Personally, I'd like to come up with some way of automating the "History of Loathing" pages to follow the templates used in "Today in KoL History" - the syntax could be made reasonably simple (e.g. insert "{{History|2007|September's [[class five ecto-larva|Item-of-the-Month]] is now available in [[Mr. Store]]. Also, October is now known as September.}}" into Template:DATE_September_30), and I doubt it'd take very long to implement (though writing a bot to properly convert the existing date templates could take a while). The only trick would be conditionally displaying the individual dates on the "History of Loathing" pages, though I'm sure some template-work can be devised. Opinions? --Quietust (t|c) 11:40, 1 October 2007 (CDT)

Hardcore Checklist Revamped

The Hardcore Checklist was easily the most useful wiki page for me in the days of yore (a.k.a. pre NS13). I've spent many, many hours completely rewriting it. Tell me if I've missed anything. (I've put more information on the Checklist talk page.) --Zamiel 02:34, 3 October 2007 (CDT)

KoL Forum Links are the Broken

The official forum upgrade seems to have invalidated all the links to there on the Wiki... Is there an easy way to repair this? Simple substitution of the old postIDs doesn't seem to work. --Bagatelle 22:36, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Archiving

• what's the policy on archiving talk? some of the pages, like this one, are getting pretty huge and are filled with stuff that's obsolete. --Evilkolbot 07:30, 3 November 2007 (CDT)

Hagnk's Bricks

• User:Mundania (lives here?) has collected a list of the text on bricks in hagnk's. the effects of his collection methods on the servers aside (pretty laggy lately, though), his first attempt at adding them to the wiki resulted in a page of over 400kb.
• we don't have exhaustive lists of player made content. player, clan, and familiar names are all available for review somewhere in the game, but we don't report them. this is in the same category. i vote this had no place in the wiki.
• anyone else? --Evilkolbot 06:36, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • I would argue that they do not belong on the wiki at all - if someone wants to host them online somewhere, they can put it on their own website. --Quietust (t|c) 10:18, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • It is a nice idea to collect them all, but there's no particular reason they need to be on the wiki. It's not like the list will ever need to be edited. :) We do have pages for The War Fund Plaque, The Yeti Names Plaque and so on, but these are actual locations which exist in the game.
  • I guess the most important point is whether the mere existence of these pages negatively impacts wiki performance. If not, I don't have a problem with them being kept. --Starwed 11:19, 6 November 2007 (CST)

• mundania's been adding the pages anyway, and they appear to be ~35k each and there may be as many as 25 of them. that's quite a lot of content to be indexing. two and a half votes against so far. --Evilkolbot 12:16, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • Axe the bricks, and then resharpen the axe. --Improv 12:19, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • I agree remove the bricks we have the list of the biggest donators to the bricks, if someone else hosts the brick I would say link to them but not have them on the wiki. --Chunky_boo 12:38, 6 November 2007 (CST)

• The reason I collected all the brick info is because there have been repeated requests on the official forums for a way to 'search' or index the bricks. Lots of people are interested in seeing the messages, and quite honestly when you look at them as a whole there are some very interesting and amusing ones. To address some of the specific comments above:
  • There is no way my data collection contributed to any lag on the servers lately. It didn't take that long and I made sure to not 'hammer' the servers by spreading it over several days.
  • Unlike many other things listed, such as usernames, war fund plaque, etc.. there is no easy way in game to view this information in it's entirity (i.e. there is no 'search' function like for many other user-created content things. This appears to me to be exactly in line with the type of content people would expect to be able to find in the wiki
  • I can't imagine that 400K of information broken across ~20 pages would tax the wiki in any way. However, instead of all of us hypthesizing about that, why not just add it and see what happens? Alternatively, one of the wiki admins could perhaps chime in about what the total size of all the pages is and what percentage this would increase it by.
  • There is no obviously 'alternative' host to put this info on.
  • This is content that's going to be 'locked down'. Once the list is complete it's not going to change, and thus won't require any further maintenance or anything.
• In conclusion, I'm a little disheartened that some of you are trying to 'surpress' this information. Just because you don't happen to be interested in it doesn't mean others aren't. Unfortunately I suspect that as often is the case, a vocal minority is speaking out here while the majority of the users aren't even aware this is being debated. If I'm willing to do the work to contribute this, you should welcome it with open arms instead of arbitrarily removing it (unless of course it's causing some major problem with the processor load on the wiki servers). I intend to continue to add the individual pages, unless someone proves it will negatively impact things.--Mundania 12:44, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • If you checked the first three people who chimed in on this are wiki admins so I don't think it is a case of the total size, first the original page was 400k in size and then rather then waiting you went and started to make separate pages for letters. --Chunky_boo 12:54, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• There was no obvious way for me to tell they are admins. I clicked on Evilkolbot's name and it doesn't indicate it on the user page in any way. I suggest in the future you indicate the you are an admin better for wiki-noobs like myself. Regarding the separate pages, if you look at the discussion on my page and the original page that was the suggestion made, and thus I was following through on that. I'm still concerned that there is a small group here jumping to conclusions simply because they don't happen to be interested in this particular info, while a lot of players actually are. I think the best way to handle this is to post a message on the kol forums asking people to take a look what's up so far and to comment on whether they think it should be part of the wiki or not. I suspect there will be a lot of positive feedback. --Mundania 13:12, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • To reiterate, if there isn't any negative impact on the wiki itself, I have no problem with this. To state it more forcefully, I don't think the pages should be removed unless there's a specific reason they're causing problems. --Starwed 13:33, 6 November 2007 (CST)
• Thanks for the input Starwed. I concur completely. I've put up about half of them so far but am waiting on posting the rest for now. I've posted this question to the forums at: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com:8080/vb/showthread.php?t=143374 for those of you interested in seeing the responses. --Mundania 13:38, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • suppress. heh. so, it's starwed says keep, everybody else says get rid. hmm, almost a consensus. is this the beginning of twelve angry men? --Evilkolbot 13:49, 6 November 2007 (CST)
  • and as far as support for a searchable list goes, it's pretty much irrelevant to whether it should be hosted here. if you feel strongly, buy some bandwidth. if they feel strongly, get them to pay for it too. --Evilkolbot 13:55, 6 November 2007 (CST)
    • Points well taken. I think far too often people, including myself, forget that sites such as this as essentially a free (to us) service that in reality does have costs associated with it. I know I rely daily upon the wiki and view it as a tremendous asset, which is why I'm trying to contribute back to it in some small way. The bottom line in my mind is that I've got some content from KoL that I believe is relevant and of interest to the community. However I understand that the site admins have other concerns that have to be taken into account as well. I'm holding off posting more of the data. I think there are 2 separate issues here: whether it'll impact the site negatively, and whether it's appropriate to post. My intention by posting to the forums was to help gather data on whether the players are interested in it, which will help determine the latter issue. Only you and the other admins have access to the data that can objectively determine the former. --Mundania 14:30, 6 November 2007 (CST)
      • Hosting the brick data on the wiki arguably does not solve the issue of them being properly searchable, since you can only search them by one criteria: username. A proper searchable brick database would allow substring searches on the brick quotes themselves (as well as searching by user ID), and that cannot be accomplished on a wiki - a separate hosting location (whether it be elsewhere on kol.coldfront.net or on a completely different host) would be necessary for something like that. --Quietust (t|c) 15:45, 6 November 2007 (CST)

You mentioned that you didn't know where else the data could go. Maybe kol.coldfront.net could host such a list directly? --Starwed 14:50, 6 November 2007 (CST)

• Wherever they're stored, they'd have to be able to be updated with bricks that have not yet been listed. Wikis are generally thought to be the best way of doing this. Whether here or elsewhere I can't decide... I can't decide whether or not it needs to be collected. --Nossidge 17:15, 6 November 2007 (CST)

• as the plurals saga showed, a wiki really isn't the best way of collecting large amounts of data in a single page. i'd be really unhappy about people being able to add unverifiable text to the ten or so 40k pages. --Evilkolbot 06:26, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Summary

• the discussion so far boils down to whether the data could or should be hosted here.

• on the could point i accept that i was wrong, since, with the reservation expressed above, 400k isn't that much. perhaps someone with better wiki-fu than me (quietust?) could look at any potential overheads.
• as far as should goes, though, the more i learn about the methods of collection and see the results the more i am convinced that this shouldn't have any place here. mundania implies elsewhere that their data collection method was to load the "view bricks" page until boredom set in. how could 400k extra page loads not put any strain on the server? did they do the statistical analysis that proved that the extract is more likely than not a representative sample? from various complaints it would seem not.

• going forward, it would seem that the consensus is that the bulk of the data should be hosted elsewhere, and the pages removed. perhaps it would be possible to reproduce the functionality of the view bricks page using substitution macros in the same way that the <collection> tags work. --Evilkolbot 06:26, 8 November 2007 (CST)

Early Maintenance?

My clock says it's 10:30. Did Jick forget daylight savings or am I a dope? --Devion 21:35, 7 November 2007 (CST)

• I hear talk that Arizona doesn't observe DST. --Bagatelle 21:37, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  • See Rollover. It's been steady at 03:30 am UTC time for at least a few years now - so 10:30 pm EST (UTC -5:00) or 11:30 pm EDT (UTC - 4:00). --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 21:49, 7 November 2007 (CST)
  • Yeah, but it was 10:30 EST when rollover happened due to DST. Right? --Devion 21:52, 7 November 2007 (CST)

Substat Pages

The Muscle Substat, Mysticality Substat, and Moxie Substat pages need an overhaul in their methodology. At the moment, the types of things listed are quite random. A clover adventure, Aloysius' Antiphon of Aptitude (which doesn't even directly give substats), zodiac signs, spleen items, various otherwise unclassified items, adventures/food/booze as "varies"... We need more solid criteria for what does and does not belong on the pages. Ideas? --TechSmurf 03:34, 12 November 2007 (CST)

• I don't think I knew those pages were there. They're weird hybrid type pages of some of the contents of Advancement (Stats from Fights/Monster Level), the specific typed sortable equipment lists, Dressing for Success (the Maximizing Your Muscle/Mysticality/Moxie pages), Muscle/Mysticality/Moxie Modifiers, Best Food/Booze/Spleen for Stats, the Muscle/Mysticality/Moxie pages, adventures which give stats, etc. It seems to have to many different types of information on it to be that useful. I use pages the more specific they are to my current problem, so a general dump of all that stuff seems unwieldy to me. Maybe these pages have been superseded by better, more specific, ones, hence why they really haven't been updated much lately. --JRSiebz (☎|§|‡) 22:07, 12 November 2007 (CST)
• Well, the spleen stuff can be split off into Best Spleen Items, and the big-gain adventures could go into Variable Stat Adventures (although, how to handle scaling...). The dietary items can have their respective pages updated to include ranges rather than just the mean. That basically leaves non-dietary consumed-on-use items and the hard-to-classify clan/hall stuff. So... use these pages as a "Miscellaneous" category that doesn't catch what people browsing the Wiki could easily find? --Bagatelle 17:51, 13 November 2007 (CST)

Zodiac sign vs. Moon sign

This is just a minor thing, but shouldn't the page about signs be located at "moon sign" and have "zodiac sign" redirect to it, instead of the other way around? Fryguy9 already asked this early 2006 but no one responded to that. It bugs me personally, so unless someone objects to it, I'm going to do the move in some days (this to give time for anyone possibly concerned to find/notice what I wrote here). --Egs 20:37, 2 December 2007 (CST) Bold text