"Water-breathing" seems like a pretty bad choice of words to me; they don't actually breathe water, do they? I hereby propose "amphibious" as a more accurate and appropriate term (thanks to greycat for suggesting "amphibious." "Underwater-breathing familiars" has also been proposed).--Knobula 16:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
- if you're going to be technical about it, "air" breathing filters oxygen from the air - I don't see why "water" breathing can't mean filtering oxygen from water.--Chalky 16:36, 18 December 2008 (UTC)
Comma Chameleons can't adventure underwater, even while emulating a water-breathing familiar (tried as an Imitation Crab and a Barrrnacle). Is it worth noting here, on the Chameleon page, both, or neither? Johnny Treehugger 20:23, 22 December 2008 (UTC)
Meat drop modifiers
My data is now suggesting that the sea has a (very annoying) mechanic with regard to effects, skills, and items that give bonuses or penalties to meat drops. Specifically, penalties are doubled and bonuses are halved; this is before you sum them together. +Meat% from familiars does not seem to be affected, thankfully. But it does mean that something like Peeled Eyeballs gives -40% to meat in the sea, and that a natty blue ascot would only give +10%. And having a natty blue ascot and peeled eyeballs gives a total of -30% meat drops in the sea (compared to +0% on land). Also see this forum thread for some more details and data. --Flargen 00:00, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- Hypothesis has to be modified. Passive skills do not have their bonuses halved. I don't have any characters in Bad Moon, so I am unable to test if a passive penalty is doubled. Moreover, half-percentile points resulting from the divisions cannot be rounded up or down; they must be left as is. --Flargen 01:20, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
Okay, turns out there were some silly errors in a couple of the spreadsheet formulas. There is still a penalty, but it has been established to be a zone-level penalty that depends upon how "deep" you are in the sea. Essentially, -25% for each "level", with the "level" currently being obvious from just looking at the picture of The Sea. I've added this to the page, and am making the rounds through my data to help figure out the true base meat drop ranges of the various sea enemies. --Flargen 22:58, 11 January 2009 (UTC)
- How does this work exactly? Is it the same as the item penalty? Mar 15:38, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
- It works like any standard meat% modifier. So if you had Polka of Plenty, Nimble Fingers, and a ratskin belt going as +meat% modifiers, then on the sea floor (excluding the trench) you'd have a net modifer of 50 + 20 + 10 - 100 = -20%. So you'd be seeing 20% less meat than the base meat ranges, loosely speaking. The item drop penalties in the sea are different. They're very explicit and don't change as you change zones. --Flargen 17:30, 12 January 2009 (UTC)
So dull fish scales can be pickpocketed? I was under the impression that they couldn't. If so, can they they be yoinked from all monsters that drop them? --Prestige 01:15, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, it's what was in the article before, and I believe on some of the briny deeps talk pages there are people who said they had pickpocketed them before. I think I've managed to do it myself, but this was back when the briny deeps was pretty new still. --Flargen 01:31, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
I don't think that unpickpocketability should be on this page. There is a difference between the characteristics of monsters that happen to be in the sea and characteristics of the sea environment itself. It is possible via spooky putty to fight fish on dry land, and it is possible via roaming holiday monsters to fight land-based creatures underwater. I'm pretty sure that the fishy items can't be pickpocketed because they marked this way in the creature template (in the same way that hobo nickels can't be pickpocketed) -- I doubt that items become unpickpocketable in virtue of the monster being encountered in the water. Everything else on this page describes a penalty yielded by the sea environment. I suppose it's possible the sea itself penalizes pickpocketers, but I think it's unlikely and this section should be pulled until we get confirmation. --Quine 07:50, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- Well, since it is a feature of the sea one way or the other, I believe it should be in there regardless. And it's a good thing to know, and it would be kind of annoying to stick on every location page, perhaps in every combat encounter, that the drops can't be pickpocketed. But we'll never know if you can pickpocket a putty sea monster, since, if I know my spoooky putty right, the putty monster always gets the jump on you. Well, I guess you could try using a whole bunch of divine crackers, or getting the Vivala item steal message, and see what happens. So it should be testable if it is truly inherent to the monsters, or part of the sea itself. Would take a long time, though. I know for a fact that CLEESH immunity is zone-imposed. I learned the hard way I couldn't make feast of boris monsters into amphibians when adventuring down there; got the same message you get from a regular sea monster. I don't know if the property is also imposed on a by-creature level, too; that could presumably be spaded with the sheet as well, by seeing if you can cleesh a putty sea creature. If reliable data on some of these comes in, we can perhaps come to some agreement on how to reword the section, if needed. --Flargen 08:13, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- So yes, I'd have to go back and check (once I'm Sea-enabled again), but I'm fairly certain that I've managed to pickpocket *some* items underwater. That makes me think it's a combination of low base drop rate and specific items being marked as unpickpocketable rather than a zone feature. --Itsatrap 18:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- Confirmed - pickpocketed a slug of rum from a nurse shark. it's just like the other thing - initiative is lowered by 50%, so pickpocketing items is hard, since it's based on initiative bonusesArgus 09:55, 7 February 2009 (UTC)
- Yes, booze from the Dive Bar can be pickpocketed, and quite easily. And the bubblegum is also a confirmed exception. However, if we believe that failure of the V mask crit item steal definitely confirms that the monster doesn't have items that can be pickpocketed, then I can confirm that pickpocket does not work against anything in the Octopus's garden and against various other monsters in other underwater zones. Also, I am still skeptical about dull fish scales being pickpocketable for the same reason; I've seen the V mask steal fail against Briny Deeps monsters. Can anyone absolutely confirm they've pickpocketed one? --Prestige 02:37, 13 February 2009 (UTC)
- I have pickpocketed a wand from the wizardfish. It's probable that pickpocketing is possible, but because of the blows to initiative, it's rare.Argus 23:02, 16 April 2009 (UTC)
- The fishy wand only drops from a special action that occurs during the wizardfish fight, during the first 4 rounds. Likely that's what happened to you, unless you're really certain you actually pickpocketed it. --Prestige 09:21, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
- I'm going with Prestige here. Being able to pickpocket the wand would violate the well-known mechanic that conditional drops cannot be pickpocketed. --Flargen 21:50, 18 April 2009 (UTC)
- Early spading indicates, that the major yellow beam from Point at your opponent appears to trigger all of a monsters non-conditional (and pickpocket only) drops to occur when eradicating a monster. I've tested this against the school of wizardfish twice (once underwater and the second was a spooky putty copy) and had 0 drops. I suggest people start recheck their spading on the pickpocketability of the dull fish scales. (Forum post: http://forums.kingdomofloathing.com/vb/showpost.php?p=3377051&postcount=284) --Shoptroll 22:29, 2 August 2009 (UTC)
Item drop modifiers
Alright, it should be definitively proven that there's a hidden item drop penalty in the sea; well, "definitively" up to some small amounts of statistical error, of course. See this forum thread. The Briny Deeps has a -25% it seems, and presumably all zones have an item drop penalty equal to the meat drop penalty. --Flargen 08:43, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Ranged Weapon Damage Penalty
I have noticed that ranged weapons do significantly less damage underwater than melee weapons. Against a sponge my scratch 'n' sniff crossbow does between 28-42 damage per normal attack but after I fold it into a scratch 'n' sniff sword it deals about 125-140 damage on a normal attack. --Joshera 22:08, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
- You're probably forgetting that ranged weapons only get 3/4 of your muscle to damage, and melee get 100%. Also that some sea zones have monsters with significantly higher defense than others. I've checked and have seen no abnormal damages. --Flargen 09:26, 26 February 2009 (UTC)
- I see, I hadn't checked the Weapon damage page out, I ran the calcs and you are correct. My bad.--Joshera 00:51, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Underwater Breathing Potions
The June 23, 2009 announcement said that "clever Pastamancers and Saucerors can now create potions that allow underwater breathing." Has any research been done into what specifically those potions are?--Bromothymol blue 16:35, 24 June 2009 (UTC)
So, I haven't been underwater adventuring long, but today was the first I've seen of a Dolphin stealing my items.
"You are slowed too much by the water, and a stupid dolphin swims up and snags a flytrap pellet before you can grab it.
As it swims away, it wags its fluke as if to say 'fluke you, Adventurer.' Man. That dolphin is a jerk."
I'm running approximately -80% due to pressure, come to look at it. So that may be the reason things are being snatched away. But I haven't seen mention of this on the wiki yet, and wonder if it deserves a section on this page. --Lukarnis 22:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- It's new as of today, per the Announcement for October 22: "There have always been dolphins in the Sea. Also, they have always been dirty thieves." And Big Brother now has a dolphin whistle for sale. --Baltar 22:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)
- For the record, the update hadn't yet been posted when I asked this. SO I was encountering the new mechanic before it was officially revealed. YAY! [laughs] Now, on to the spading. Is this mechanic independent of pressure penalties? I note the text "you are slowed too much by the water." I know this mechanic is independent of Fishy since I had that effect active each time I encountered a thieving dolphin. I didn't encounter any thieves while fighting in the Briney Deeps, where my effects stacked to greater than the penalty.--Lukarnis 08:54, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
The text of the page says "at the end of your turn". Should that be "at the end of the combat"? --LegendaryBard 01:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- 10 turns of -300% item drops (plus a -100% penalty), no dolphins encountered. They're stealing our hard-earned stuff.--Toffile 15:46, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
- Dolphins only steal stuff that you don't get because of pressure penalty, not (doesn't seem so) for items you don't get because of your own -item% --Hrag 21:07, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Although this isn't directly related to the rotten dolphin thief, I think they've also added a similar message reflecting the underwater Meat penalty: "You manage to grab X Meat, but the rest sinks into the murky depths." Not sure where to add it. --Baltar 19:41, 23 October 2009 (UTC)
Someone should add a link to this section of the Wiki page under the search string 'dolphin/s'. I just did a search to see if there's some way of preventing them stealing from you, and the only things that show up, currently are the Dolphin King's Map Quest (& related items) and the rotten dolphin thief. And I would say that the latter is related because with the dolphin whistle you can get a stolen item back. Mamph 18:12, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
Oh, as an afterthough -- using the Mer-kin foodbuckets and Mer-kin thingpouches & the like, as you acquire them will prevent them from being stolen, I assume, as the contents are not 'directly' dropped by the creatures. I would usually just adventure and then use them all when I'm done in a zone, now, with these thievin' dolphins, I think I'll be using them as I get them to prevent pilfering! Mamph 18:19, 28 October 2009 (UTC)
- The dolphins don't steal things that you have in your inventory, only things that would have dropped had the underwater penalty not been affecting you. These are also the items that you can get back when you beat one in combat. Once you have an item it stays in your inventory...at least as far as they are concerned.--Stormcaller58 02:44, 29 October 2009 (UTC)
Meat Drop Change?
I got the following when adventuring underwater. Couldn't find this text searching the wiki. Is this some new meat mechanic/indicator when underwater adventuring?
- You manage to grab 114 Meat, but the rest sinks into the murky depths.
--Fryguy9 02:03, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
- That got implemented along with the dolphins. It's a bit of narrative to make the presence of meat/item drop penalties apparent from the actual game-play. --Flargen 02:17, 20 November 2009 (UTC)
Someone put on the page that the Gibberer gets double bonus adventures underwater. Does it really? That would seem to be a pretty big deal if true. But it's not on the Gibberer page itself. --Rpxx 17:53, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Not a huge deal, but should it be noted somewhere that "accessing" the drunken stupor by clicking an underwater zone does not require an air source for either you or your familiar, and costs only one adventure? (Oh, and this is the case, for anyone who wasn't sure.) --Notsupposedtobehere 19:53, 10 January 2012 (CET)