Talk:Dressing For Success

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I rewrote this any some of the coresponding articles will someone with better knowledge of the other pages please rewrite them. --Chunky_boo 22:27, 14 October 2007 (CDT)

I have a request: all of the outfits assume that one has access to everything in one's inventory. Wouldn't it be handy to have a Hardcore classification, though, instead of just organizing it by devotion to the game/wealth? The hardcore player may have all the items and skills a Deity may have, but access to only the skills.--Joel 11:25, 22 July 2007 (CDT)

• I'm not sure how useful that would be. As someone who was primarily HC pre-NS-13, I wouldn't have bothered trying to maximise anything. It would have taken too many turns to farm for all the parts. --Bagatelle 11:43, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
  • It could be useful for someone trying to get the million meat trophy... but I guess you're right. You really just have to take things as they come in HC.--Joel 11:59, 22 July 2007 (CDT)
• I've also been thinking item classing in regard to maximizing effects needs to have a listing aligned to ascension runs. For example, one listing for what is practical for a first run player, another for hardcore, and so forth. I also think level specific entries would have more practical game applications than simply the overall maximums for buffs and stat bonuses. A point to consider since many items though available prior to an ascension are obtainable so late in a run their usefulness is often limited. Currently these pages only have a bearing on at least second run and after casual ascensions.--Xclockwatcher 16:54, 5 September 2007 (CDT)

I think it would be nice to add outfits for elemental resistance.--Wierd Ali 15:51, 1 July 2006 (CDT)

I'm thinking that a reorganization of these tables may be handy. It seems like meat based bands are somewhat secondary to ascension based bands. If caps were set in terms of how things were attained (HC attainable, path only items, class only items, rewards, holiday items, Mr. store items, etc.) in addition to mall cost, it might make it more relavent to the barriers people run in to. --Dantose 09:11, 7 May 2006 (CDT)

This series of articles is fantastic. Awesome work, Gymnosophist. --Snickles 19:51, 11 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

• Thanks!  :) As always, if anyone has any comments of suggestions, please speak up. One thing in particular I had trouble with was the player types names (KOL Deity, Villa, Hardcore, Normal, Slacker). I tried to make them understandable and KOLish, but if anyone has any better ideas... Now I just have to get the explanations finished! --Gymnosophist 10:16, 13 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

• • Exchange Slacker for Apathetic Lizardman maybe?--Gorgolok 11:58, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

Oyster egg effects seem to be valued differently on different lists. The meat drop ones apply to Normal, whereas Vocabulary only applies to hardcore or higher. Personally, I'd make eggs hardcore, simply because they're not an everyday drop.--Gorgolok 15:34, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

• Yes, that's because some are over the 10,000 meat cut-off and some are under. The details of the drop are unimportant, as the only significant factor is the mall cost. Something that isn't explicitely stated (but needs to be) is that the players are assumed to be free of any ronin or hardcore constraints. If this weren't the case, buffs, reagent potions, etc. would only be available through the players own efforts, which is not what what's being illustrated here.--Gymnosophist 18:53, 17 Aug 2005 (Central Daylight Time)

The whole player classification thing seems overly complicated and contradictory to me. If you don't make your special weapon you're an apathetic lizardman, but if your clan gives buffs you're also a deity? If you set the mind control device to 2 you're suddenly better than hardcore? Being hopped up on goofballs is a status symbol? It just seems like unneccessary stratification to me. I think "here are some things to do to be a good player" would be more helpful that "u are teh suck if you only have 300 damage absorbtion"

• It's an interesting exercise and wasn't intended to be much more than that. The stratification is just arbitrary; to distinguish between various levels of player, lines had to be drawn somewhere. It's not intended to insult your abilities if you fall into one category or the other. Also, the mind control entry refers to equipment gained through manipulation of the mind control device, not setting the device to any particular setting. The reason for the distinction being the additional effort required to collect the mind control equipment, such as multiple ascensions. --Snickles 14:55, 28 Sep 2005 (MDT)

Clan buff usage as a "Villa"-only privilege? Considering the relative ease of starting your own clan and calling buffs from that... I'm... not too sure about being -that- uptight about clanbuffs. --Tenebrys 18:29, 28 November 2005 (Central Standard Time)

We should put a listing for Mr. Store equipment, as well. From what I've noticed on Item and Meat Drops, they're being classified as Villa/Diety only as of right now. What sayeth?

• Two major problems to the current categories, as I see it.
  • You pick your class the very first time you play, and the Beat Your Nemesis quest is dead easy, so anybody should have access to Class specific equipment. I suppose you could limit it so Apathetic Lizardmen don't get it because they didn't bother to do the optional quest.
  • You can pick a Moon Sign as soon as you ascend. You don't even have to be hardcore. At the very least, Hardcore players should have access to this.

--RyokoYahagi 14:52, 10 February 2006 (Central Standard Time)

Even aside from the question of classification, these are mostly complete messes by now. Whoever's been maintaining them has been doing so by simply dropping in the highest-value new items and effects as they appear without regard for whether they can actually be utilized at the same time (e.g. red, black and green tongue all at once, or a pike pike equipped with flaming talons). Anyone up to diving in and trying to untangle the mess? --Ben-San Arizona 04:16, 19 March 2006 (CST)

"From this, it's easy to see that if you're a dedicated Fernswarthy's Basement delver, you may wish to skew your base stats towards Mysticality and Moxie and away from Muscle." - This statement is false: it doesn't matter what your highest base stat is, since you can always use an equalising potion to make them all the same. So, although your basement diving will be limited by your *buffed* Mys/Mox, increasing your *base* Mys/Mox won't help at all. -- Tagliatelle 17:41 10th April 06 (BST)

The "Hardcore" label seems like a rather poor choice, as it has a clear meaning within KoL that apparently is not intended to apply here at all. Perhaps calling it something like "Ascender"? Or some other idea? --Hellion 12:35, 28 April 2006 (CDT)

• Excellent idea! Ascender it is. --Gymnosophist 12:57, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
  • In keeping with that idea, then, perhaps a few of the equipment/buff classifications could be reworked...? Ascenders may have permed some non-buff skills, or they may not have. Certainly there are several that are universally recognized as must-haves. Perhaps a limit of 3 non-buff skills? Also, Ascenders should, I would think, be allowed to receive the Zodiac sign bonuses, as that is a key element of ascending. And finally, I would also argue that "Class-specific equipment" is both cheap and easy to acquire for Ascenders or better. --Hellion 17:25, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
  • To expand upon the idea a bit further, perhaps the description of "Ascender" vs. "Normal" could be rewritten along the lines of "Ascenders are people who play the game pretty steadily, and who are interested in improving their playing efficiency. They've done a fair bit of digging to determine what's the best type of item that they can afford, and they've developed at least a minimal strategy regarding what skills they want to keep over the next ascension or two. They have probably ascended at least 3 or 4 times." and "Normals are people who play the game pretty regularly, but are just having fun fiddling about and figuring things out. They're not too concerned about improving their efficiency. They may have ascended once, but jumped through the gash without much of a plan if they did." --Hellion 20:49, 28 April 2006 (CDT)
    • In my opinion, it might've been better to leave "Hardcore" as it was and added a new label for "Ascender", for the people who play and ascend frequently but have never done any hardcore runs (which are significantly more difficult than normal runs). --Quietust 14:55, 29 April 2006 (CDT)
    • Just reviving this, I also believe the Ascender category should have access to at least a few non-buff skills. As it is, with them being denied Zodiac Sign bonuses and non-buff skills, the Ascender shouldn't have access to shirts, but they do on most of the pages. (Meat even gave it to the Normal class, before I removed that.) If they have free access to SS equipment, they should have at least some non-buff skills. I also agree with the below comments about item effect costs; at the least the Ascender class should have SOME limit.--Salien 00:26, 30 July 2007 (CDT)

I think perhaps there should be a section for maximizing familiar weight?--Stik guy 15:27, 11 June 2006 (CDT)

Reducing the Item buff Meat maximums

It has recently been brought to my attention that there is a standard for editing these tables. The limits on the tables seem to be fine except for in the item buffs category. I think in order for these pages to be useful the item cost limit should be lowered. When farming for items a player must maintain the buff. I doubt that even a hardcore player would maintain a 30k buff for 200 turns let alone a normal player maintaining a 10k buff for more than 20 turns. It is simply not cost efficient. Now if these tables are not about efficiency then ignore this comment, but if the intent of the tables is to be accurate then the limits need to be lowered to something more like 1000 for Lizardmen, 3000 for normal players, and 6000 for hardcore players. --SomeStranger (Talk | Contribs) 20:16, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

• I think I would say that these pages are, perforce, somewhat tilted towards theoretical use rather than practical. By this I mean that for many of the Stat/Game Mechanics included here there just isn't much practical benefit to maximizing, say, your Combat Initiative at the expense of other needed stats. Practical gameplay militates that players maintain a certain balancing of stats, with this balance depending on their class, skills at hand, adventure environment, player objectives, etc. I can hardly think of any situations in which a player would completely abandon this balancing act and truly work to maximize a single stat. Dedicated Fernswarthy's Basement adventurers working to overcome skill tests are about the only example I can think of. A secondary example are higher level farmers who don't care about leveling and who don't have to worry about getting hit and can just concentrate on maximizing their rate of return on adventures by farming. Some history on these pages is that they, in part, were developed to serve as answers to some "I wonder what the maximum x you could get is" questions posed. I can see that the buff allowance might be a little generous - perhaps limits of, say, 500 - Apathetic Lizardman, 2,000 - Normal , 10,000 - Hardcore, 50,000 - Villa, No Limit - KOL Deity might be better. Another approach is to set up a dedicated farming page; a page that analyzes such things as cost effective buffs and payback periods on pieces of equipment. I actually really like this idea. What do you think? --Gymnosophist 21:57, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
  • I would definatley like to do that. I think that you would only need two pages, one for item drop and one for meat drop. And maybe even a combined version of them. Those seem to be the two factors which people most likely would want to max and if we did an entire page meant as an analysis of icy peak farming with the benefits of item drops of meat drops balanced (since you can sell the skins) it would definatley be a very useful guide. --SomeStranger (Talk | Contribs) 22:12, 20 April 2006 (CDT)
    • I agree! If you like, why don't you take the bull by the horns on this one? --Gymnosophist 22:20, 20 April 2006 (CDT)

Character Type Descriptions and abilities

I don't know about anyone else, but these descriptions seem to skip a lot of space on the lower end of the spectrum. For instance, the apathetic lizardman already has 10000 meat worth of equipment. It seems to me that there should be something lower than that. More alarming, however, is the gap between Normal and Hardcore. This table seems to be based on the way the game USED to work, and actually describes how long they have been playing more than how hard they try. I motion that we revamp a few of these descriptions, and perhaps toss in a category between normal and hardcore. (Which, incidentally, is where I would fit in.) We could call this one "softcore", and it would be comprised of people who probably have ascended many times, and have gotten the hang of getting through all the quests easily, but still are not yet worthy of hardcore. These are people who use some of the items that the hardcore uses (I think one of these was the Potion Of Temporary Gr8tness), yet do not have access to IOTMs. It seems to me that this is a fairly large demographic, at least worth a mention. --PhantomTrogdor 19:05, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

I can't speak for the softcore category, but 10,000 meat's barely a day or two worth of play, really. I mean, how much lower than that can you go and really have a worthwhile category anyway?--Idran 20:12, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Don't use the terms "hardcore" and "softcore" when discussing these pages. "Hardcore" has a very specific in-game meaning that doesn't apply here. The actual terminology used on these pages is "Ascender", which means that you may have run hardcore ascensions in the past, but you currently are not on one. Most of these optimizations depend on being able to pull equipment which you used on previous runs, which is not possible in hardcore. I don't know if there's a good way to label all of these pages to avoid confusion, but really they only help in non-Hardcore situations. --Jonrock 22:06, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

• On the hardcore issue, the Explanation of Methodology starts off by saying that "All players are assumed to have full access to the mall and are free of any ronin or hardcore constraints". An explanation, or perhaps, because of the length of the Dressing For Success Methodology notes, just a link should be there. On the lower-than-an-apathetic-lizardman suggestion, I really don't see the point. On the "gap" between Ascender and Normal - I can't see that any such gap exists. As I look at the Recap Table, I see a big gap between Apathetic Lizardman and Normal, but otherwise, I see a fairly gently progression from Normal all the way up to KOL Deity. If anything, there's more of a gap between Villa and Ascender than there is between Ascender and Normal. Can you be more specific about the perceived Ascender/Normal gap? I also don't understand your comment "This table seems to be based on the way the game USED to work, and actually describes how long they have been playing more than how hard they try.". What game changes have occurred that make these tables obsolete? And "how long they have played" basically equates to "how hard they try" - again your point eludes me. Perhaps you can give some specific examples to illustrate your points. --Gymnosophist 22:39, 17 September 2006 (CDT)

Okay, First of all, the idea about the lower-than-apathetic lizardman, on second thought, was a bad idea. Scratch that part. Second, how long you have played has NOTHING to do with how hard you play. I do not see how you can possibly equate those two terms, since they apply to two seperate variables in players. There are some members who have been playing since before ascension, and did not try hard, and end up with about ascender-level items. And then, there are those who have not been playing long (Simply because they had not heard about this game until recently) but work their asses off trying to get the best items. Third, now that the Icy Peak has been changed, it is very difficult to get meat, and many people are unable to get the meat to buy largely expensive items from the mall without donating and then selling Mr. As. Or, at the very least, it is more difficult. Fourth of all, perhaps you are right, and the new category should be between Villa and Ascender. How about this: A category for a person who has all the best items that are currently available in the game without buying them via the mall. I think that that would probably be a good category to put in between ascender and villa...Also, it would be useful for the people who like to get items themselves rather than buy every little thing from the mall. Now, to explain this idea...I am assuming here that these categories are here to be USED as a GOAL, not to give the playerbase some sort of guide as to what categories they may fit into. If it is the latter, then this entire idea of categories is an utter waste of space. So, assuming that it is the latter, there should be a category representing the best possible items available to EVERYONE in the playerbase, and that includes the people who do not use the mall often, or do not have the meat to spend in the mall. --PhantomTrogdor 20:18, 24 September 2006 (CDT)

• I'm sorry, but I think that you misunderstood me. When I said that there was a bigger gap between Villa and Ascender than there was between Ascender and Normal, I was merely making an observation, not advocating that a new category be made. Your various suggestions for new categories don't seem to be convincing or compelling, at least to me. Your latest suggestion is that a category be created that represents only things that can be obtained through gameplay and not through using the mall. This is really just another way of saying that we should create a category for the best possible hardcore gear (in the "true" KoL sense of hardcore). This would knock out the central assumption of the "Dressing" pages - that "all players are assumed to have full access to the mall and are free of any ronin or hardcore constraints". Further, I'm not sure that there are any players who completely eschew the mall. If there are, I certainly doubt that they go all-out to get the "best" gear - that's masochistic in the extreme!  :) Finally, as stated above, "these pages are, perforce, somewhat tilted towards theoretical use rather than practical. By this I mean that for many of the Stat/Game Mechanics included here there just isn't much practical benefit to maximizing, say, your Combat Initiative at the expense of other needed stats. Practical gameplay militates that players maintain a certain balancing of stats, with this balance depending on their class, skills at hand, adventure environment, player objectives, etc. I can hardly think of any situations in which a player would completely abandon this balancing act and truly work to maximize a single stat". I really need to make this clearer on the main "Dressing" page. --Gymnosophist 22:33, 24 September 2006 (CDT)
• On this page, it says that ascender has no equipment that costs more than 1000000 meat, yet on the individual pages, it shows the ascender having things such as Mr. Store items. Which is it? --Barstool 18:10, 28 November 2006 (CST)

The "KoL Deity" class is meant to represent the theoretical maximum. It seems like they should get the full moon bonus (ie, 100% Wereseal and 80% Baio, OR 50% Grimacite, whichever is better.) That would clear up a lot of the unsightly "1329-1499" values in the summary column. --PlatypusNinja 16:06, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

I do not understand how an Ascender would not have access to non-buff skills if they are assumed to have ascended several times including some HC runs. An Ascender, whom we have assumed to have made several ascensions, should have access to some of the non-buff skills (Torso Awaregness and Double-Fisted Skull Smashing being my two primary areas of concern). I offer a set-up where, if, there are multiple non-buff skills for a particular maximizing area available the Ascender type has access to one of them. I would even go so far as to say that they have the best one out of the choices but definitely do not have all of them. Give the Ascender a shirt and option on dual wield, but not IotM type (multi-million meat) items in those slots. To sum up, an Ascender (non HC-centric) is theorized to have played aggressively, if not for a long period of time, and made a lot of progress would have realized that having an extra slot (torso) available, the ability to use more items (dual wield), and the best of the non-buff skills in their area of interest would have made that happen even if they do not have the monetary resources or total play time (ascension history) of a Villa(n).--Magered 02:11, 17 September 2007 (CDT)

• Reading through the rest of the page to date, it seems there is a fair amount of support (Salien 00:26, 30 July 2007 (CDT); Hellion 17:25, 28 April 2006 (CDT); editors allowing shirts for Ascenders, and now you) for this view. Dressing For Success#Player Classifications describes Ascenders as players who've "ascended a number of times, including some hardcore runs," so it seems reasonable that they've got some skills permed for use out of ronin. We could use Hardcore Skill Analysis (which may be a little outdated) as a basis for figuring out which skills to include... So if we were to give Ascenders more leeway in terms of non-buff skills, Amphibian Sympathy would certainly be allowed (it's even more important now, with the familiar ascension nerf). But I'm not sure I agree with you concerning DFSS/Awaregness. Shirts, while nice, aren't so insanely desirable that someone with a smaller number of ascensions would be likely to have it permed. And what's the current thinking with DFSS? Now that LTSynergy no longer works, would it seem as attractive to someone just starting to ascend? What do people think? --Bagatelle 20:22, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
  • I'd say a more pressing argument exists for including shirts in ascender. A full third of ascended players will have access to the skill without perming it.
  • I think it's entirely reasonable to list DFSS, Amphibian Sympathy, Torso Awaregness, Mad Looting Skills, and Nimble Fingers because these are obviously skills that can be useful again and again in many ascensions, especially in Hardcore where you need every extra drop you can squeeze out. Even if not every Ascender has these skills permed, enough clearly see the benefits after even just one or two ascensions.--PassionFever 00:11, 9 October 2007 (CDT)
    • The same can be said of about half the skills in the game. Claws of the Otter is obviously something which is helpful, but that doesn't mean it's particularly useful to assume everybody has it. Assuming DFSS on these pages just means that rather than showing people a potentially useful offhand item or shield, you show them two of the same weapon. DFSS was my second permed skill, and I use it all the time, but it's still not useful to show it here because the obvious strategy is to just put another of your main weapon into your offhand if it's better to do so. It might affect the numbers at the bottom a bit, but I can't imagine they are particularly useful to anybody anyway as real people don't fit perfectly into these classifications, but it's nice to be shown some equipment that could be helpful. Regardless of the usefulness of the Torso Awaregness in general, I think that adding shirts to the lower classifications is fine because it's just more information for people. If they don't have Awaregness, they can just ignore that table entry. The difference is that you're not taking any information away by doing this. --JiK4eva 23:59, 13 December 2007 (CST)
• I have to disagree with the torso awaregness since it was my third skill that I permed, the DFSS i do have to agree with since the nerfing of LTS/Stoat made it useless but on the other hand someone may have permed it before the LTS was nerfed so it is a matter of pre-NS13 or post-NS13 that we view the Ascender as but my vote would be add the torso to the ascender since it is a nice skill that many people will take as soon as they know about it. --Chunky_boo 20:44, 17 September 2007 (CDT)
• Omitting things like Torso Awaregness from the Ascender column is stupid and will obscure useful data if adhered to, case in point, see the Maximizing Your Item Drops page... It makes it look like there's NO shirt anyone short of a Villa can use for Item Drop increases, which is just plain not the case. Same thing happened on the MEat Drops page, where a duct tape shirt is the only shirt listed, same for the Moxie page and the Damage Absorption page- the others aren't so bad because the shirts listed you can get through simple one-time drops or smithing, at least that gives some useful data. This is a classic case of well intentioned attempts at uniformity degrading the value of information for which the wiki is supoposed to be a reference. The whole point is to prvide a continuum of options so that players at all levels can maximize their play. An ascender who realized they didn't have Torso Awaregness would probably make the modest effort required to get it if they knew the benefits it could have, which is FAR preferable to just thinking that option does not exist. Please, fix this rule as soon as possible.--PassionFever 00:01, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

Other outfits

• What about Maximizing your Stat Gains? For those who want to powerlevel to 15 for the skills, or 30 for the you-know-whats? --Mozai 11:11, 16 December 2006 (CST)

Table Organization?

I've been going over these Maximizing tables a lot recently and noticed after equipment, everything is quite jumbled. Seeing as how the top of the tables is already grouped as equipment, I would like to suggest the rest of the table be grouped by skills, effects from items and skills and if at all possible, adding a header above each one. I believe this would increase readability. --Azrane 07:41, 15 February 2007 (CST)

A lot of the jumble (at least in the Mus/Myst/Mox tables) comes from generic buffs that are common to each of the stats. Examples are the Sauce potions, Goofballs, Phonics Down, Heart of Foo, Dungeons of Doom potion, Chips buff, Egg buff, Clan buff, Crimbo buffs, AT buffs, level-0 class-skill buffs, and the Haunted Bathroom medicine cabinet buff. If these were moved to a separate page, it might make the table easier to read. --PlatypusNinja 16:18, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

I created a prototype Dress-For-Success<generic stat buffs> table. I wasn't sure how to create a user sandbox, so it's living in the global one for now. My thought is that we could use this to remove clutter from the three existing stat tables. That would be a fairly significant change, though, so I thought I would get people's opinions first... --PlatypusNinja 19:07, 9 July 2007 (CDT)

Sorry, I meant to respond earlier, but I got sidetracked with other projects. Were you thinking of moving the generic buffs to a separate page? From a maintenance perspective, I would be against that, as I see this series' main point as getting to the final total for each player type. Checking that the separate components to sum correctly is hard enough without having to consult a different page. And when new effects come in, we'd have to edit that page plus the totals on this one. My two Meat; others may feel differently. --Bagatelle 17:25, 12 July 2007 (CDT)

Fair enough. --PlatypusNinja 19:51, 13 July 2007 (CDT)

Would people find it useful to split out effects due to different sources (e.g., food, booze, spleen, other) in order to plan their diets? Keep in mind that the page is rather cluttered already, and adding fullness hits will make it increasingly ugly. --Bagatelle 15:15, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

ML or/and Stat Gains

How about maximizing Monster Level? or even just Maximizing Stat Gains? or combined? or all 3? This is because some people want stats, without it affecting how strong the monsters are, some people don't care how high the monster level is because their moxie is high enough, etc. --CG1||| 15:20, 18 March 2007 (CDT)

• Hmm, the closest thing we have right now is LTSynergy. That page (would ideally) list all Monster Level effects, but it is slanted towards providing Bonus Melee Damage and Combat Initiative too. I don't think there were really all that many Monster Level modifiers when these pages started up. The same goes for stat gain bonuses. I wonder what other game mechanics might possibly benefit from a "maximizing your" table. I think it's safe to say that Combat Frequency never will, for one. Anyway, to answer your question, I think there should at least be a Maximizing Your Monster Level page. For stat gains, even now there is hardly any equipment that provides a bonus: just five off-hand items, a rather uncommon accessory, and a couple of ranged weapons (according to the page at least). For maximizing effects, it's easy just to go down the list on that page and see what is available for you. That is speaking strictly on terms of non-monster level induced stat gains though. I can see why you would think it would be useful to combine the two too, since Monster Level directly translates into stat gains. I too think that combining the two into a table would be a good idea. I'm torn between creating both a pure "Maximizing Your Monster Level" and a combination of the two or just creating the combination of the two. Does anyone else have an opinion? How about the names of the pages? Dropping the "Your" for "Maximizing Monster Level" definitely sounds better (and makes more sense)... --TheDotGamer 07:43, 22 March 2007 (CDT)
  • I probably should have read this first... but I just made a Maximizing Monster Level page. It can be moved if there is a problem. --Barstool 12:30, 2 May 2007 (CDT)

Bad Moon Effects

I haven't seen any being added yet, but I don't think it'd be a good idea to add Bad Moon effects (Brimstone equipment is fine, though) because no-one in Bad Moon is going to be maximising anything, and it'd be difficult (impossible?) to synergise all the appropriate effects. Perhaps a note should be affixed to the methodology section or the appropriate tables. --Bagatelle 19:18, 13 August 2007 (CDT)

• Although having even one of the effects on could be useful for basement divers... Does anyone know if the adventures can be encountered after breaking Ronin/if they are one-time? --Bagatelle 19:14, 17 August 2007 (CDT)
  • Although although, apparently Hagnk's is never available, so BMers aren't going to have access to their storage goodies, ever. So BM effects are out, and I'm going to stop talking to myself --Bagatelle 20:24, 29 August 2007 (CDT)
    • Hagnks is unavailable, its just not there. Can be accessed through scripts or simple javascript use. --Eugene 02:29, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
    • Who says their stuff has to be in storage? You can still get things out of your display case, can't you? —Yendor 06:29, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
      • According to Display Case, you are not allowed to pop display items out in Hardcore/Ronin. Do you have evidence that it is allowed in BM? If it were, I'd suspect it's unintended, and would be patched. --Bagatelle 17:20, 5 September 2007 (CDT)
        • Having Bad Moon as a sign doesn't always mean you're in HC; after freeing the King HC restrictions are lifted and you can pull/put things in a DC--Supernova163 00:01, 10 September 2007 (CDT)
  • Even after breaking the crystal in Bad Moon, you still don't get any of your skills back. Nobody's going to be basement diving without skills. (Also, the adventures are indeed one-time.) --PlatypusNinja 01:01, 9 October 2007 (CDT)

However, the KoL Deity class is EVERYTHING in the game that can be accessed, even custom items no one else can ever get, why not include BM effects in there? I think BM effects should be on the KoL Deity category. --Duff 14:28, 5 December 2007 (CST)

Suggestion: Item Availability Level

I was just thinking that it might be good the have the addition of a table centered around Character Level included with each category. The very 'best to dress' is good to know, but what about the best available based on where one is at different points during an average ascension? If we look at the high-end maxing of skills as the end stage, what about during the progression of Ronin, First-Run and Hardcore ascensions. Gaining a quest doesn't mean it is completed at that level but it does determine what drops and items become available to certain extent. Also, access to most areas are based around main stat amount, so it would only need some addenda related to class and zodiac sign. Is there anyone else interested in this?

Also it seems to me that the Maximize pages should have clearer links to their specific comprehensive item lists and related pages, I always seem to be hunting around for cross-links. ...And, Yes I know they're usually at the top, but when you're scanning for a link, are you looking for a word to point you there or heading? I probably reference this section and Mechanics more often than anything else as a testament to its value and its contributers. Some circular group links under a 'See Also' heading would be useful. I'd work on some of this but I not real familiar with the standards and practices here. Also, someone has gone through a lot of trouble recently to clean up these pages so I don't want to go upsetting the apple cart. --Xclockwatcher 13:44, 28 August 2007 (CDT)

• Interesting idea. Someone proposed this (Hardcore, at least) before, and I shot it down because I didn't think a HC player would spend all those turns backfarming all the items and ingredients. While they'd boost to a certain main stat to a certain point to unlock an area, I don't think they'd maximise. I guess the question is, "What do people use these pages for?" I'd assumed that it was primarily for kicks, to see how big things could get. As a side effect, basement-divers could see what kind of a boost they could reasonably expect to get, and level accordingly.
  
  I think your Character Level idea has some merit (for SC/casual), but my gut feeling is that it would be a nightmare to implement and maintain. Perhaps the way to go here is to write a program that parses the appropriate modifier data. Then, the moon data, requirements, actual stat rating (not the assumption of 100, so percentage and absolute boosters could be chosen correctly), and what the player has available/is willing to buy could be taken into account.
  
  I wouldn't worry about "upsetting the apple cart." The Wiki is 99.99% editable for a reason. If you're worried about lack of know-how, you can always check out Help:Contents and Established Standards, or cry for help on a talk page. Just remember to leave the page better than when you started, and that snark is generally reserved for lack of proofreading and adding incorrect information. --Bagatelle 20:24, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

After working some with Maximizing Your Muscle, I have some additional points for discussion:

• Do people want effects granted solely from adventures to be added? It would be difficult to get them to stack due to the Adventure Queue/their low duration. I suppose only Villa/Deity would even make the attempt to stack them. Currently, Spirit of Alph is listed on the MaxMus page, although Pumped Up and Mad at Science are not.
• The deflation of wad prices/reagent potion prices (thanks to the NS13 Sauceror baking nerf) have really narrowed the differences at the bottom end of the player spectrum, at least for the stat tables. Do people still find the separations meaningful (would Lizardpeople even use this table?)?
• Should day-dependent effects be added (Dependence Day, Tuesday's ruby, others?), and if so, which player classes have access?
• Lots of the effect-granting potions/equipment, while within the stated price range for Lizardpeople, have a very limited mall supply (e.g., battered hubcap). Should prices be treated specially if there aren't a lot of items available, even if the items will eventually drop for any player?
• Starry-Eyed: clearly, the Deity is allowed the full 35%, but what about Villa?
• Should Ascender and Normal be allowed Clan access? Their meat limits (1M, 100K) can certainly purchase the clan trainers and buffs.

--Bagatelle 15:28, 9 September 2007 (CDT)

Suggestion: MP or HP regeneration

I have noticed that this page is lacking a subsection for items which gives maximum regeneration, like chef's hat or the various staffs or familiars, which regenerates a few MP for adventure. Grammar nazi 04:35, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

• Interesting... Might be handy for cooks/mixers/smithers. We also seem to be missing Damage Reduction and Stat Gains from Fights. --Bagatelle 20:24, 29 August 2007 (CDT)

Bad Moon Rewards

I've just added the brimstone beret to the moxie page, only to Deity. Should we give them to Villa, too? It makes sense, since they already have the plexyglass and the definition is that they have access to "the best item and effects that anyone can obtain" --Worthstream 16:41, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

• I'd say go for it. The Villa folks have supposedly achieved HOxy rewards, and my feeling of BM so far is that it's of comparable difficulty. They even have about the same daycount as HCO runs on the leaderboards at the moment. --Bagatelle 17:12, 1 September 2007 (CDT)

Suggestion: Maximizing Familiar Levels and Maximizing Combat/Non-Combat Adventures

Think we should make one? I mean some familiars like the Baby Gravy Fairy or Leprechaun can benefit from extremely high familiar levels (as well as other familiars a bit), and maybe add one for maximizing combat and non-combat adventures, or at least compile all the items that increase and decrease them.--JohnAnon 23:28, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

• The combat/non-combat one would basically be the entire mechanics list for all player classes, once the puppy/non-buff skills are excluded, so it wouldn't be too exciting. The familiar weight table would have more variation, but I don't think it would be terribly useful. If you're trying to maximise weight, you're trying to maximise some familiar ability, generally item/meat/stats/etc; those are already integrated (or should be, in the case of stats, I guess) into the maximising pages. --Bagatelle 21:49, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Rewrite to end feud

I have attempted to do a reclassification of the classes. See User:Chunky boo/dressingrewrite and comment please. --Chunky_boo 22:26, 8 October 2007 (CDT)

• Unless I hear any objections otherwise I am going to attempt a rewrite of the page in a couple of days. The rewrite will mostlikely be similar to the rewrite on the above link. If you have objections to this or ideas to make it better please put it on the talk page of the above link. --Chunky_boo 14:30, 13 October 2007 (CDT)
  • I think the gap between Normal and casual is too wide. Make Normal "Less than 5 ascensions (no hardcore)", and have a limit of 2 MCD specials.--Ac1983fan 07:02, 28 November 2007 (CST)
  • Personally, I wouldn't mind a Hardcore listing, showing what items, skills and effects could reasonably be collected on a single run. *Recurring* seasonal items are a maybe, but in general, no access to multiple items, and no cones, hearts, and no items that require heavy farming, like duct tape or bounty items.--Terry 18:52, 29 November 2007 (CST)
  • Why have the classes at all? This seems to be a lot of sound and fury signifying nothing (except perhaps bragging rights) there are so many duplications in the 5 "classes of adventurers, why not just list the "top 5" items in each unique slot, top 5 combinations of (2h weapon OR 1H weapon+offhand OR 2 compatible weapons) and perhaps 15 accessories? --Caliburn 20:39, 29 July 2008 (CDT)Caliburn 20:36 CDT 7-29-08

Classifications

In my opinion, the Casual player is currently overpowered. They have access to stainless steel equipment, which seems unreasonable to me because it is fairly time-consuming to collect them all. At most they should be able to equip one piece at a time (in Maximizing your Mysticality both the scarf and the solitaire are used). My suggestion is that Casual players can have one piece of SS, Ascenders get unlimited SS but one plexiglass or brimstone, and Villans can have as much as they like (similar to the way we used to MCD items). The way I use the tables is to go down the classifications for each slot until I find one that is reasonable for me, and if everybody has access to everything, they become much less useful. The Casual player also has DFSS permed, which (unless I'm much mistaken) isn't a particularly common skill, and it also obscures the tables because it invariably just shows that you could equip a second of your primary weapon.

Also, the Normal player's maximum equipment value of 100,000 is fairly high, over the seven equipment slots this could end up being 700,000 in equipment. Even if we're assuming that people are willing to spend all their Meat on maximizing something, there are still a lot of players off the bottom of this spectrum who won't get much out of these tables.

I would also like to suggest that it's reasonable for KoL Deities to have access to a single adventure buff. They aren't reasonably stackable even for Deities, but surely they can get one? --JiK4eva 23:45, 13 December 2007 (CST)

• What I find irritating about maintaining this series is that whenever someone complains about the methodology, and then someone else engages them on the issue, the conversation dies. Case in point: the current methodology was updated a couple of months back, and when comments were solicited, a total of four people took the time to give feedback. Oddly enough, those who bothered to comment were in favour of adding Brimstone equipment, on account of the fact that BM runs aren't that much harder than regular HC runs, which Ascenders can do.
  
  Anyway, enough with my ranting. On your other points, good call on the DFSS doubling one-handed weapons. Perhaps instead of (in addition to) a "maximising" series, we should have a "best equipment" series, which lists the top X pieces of equipment, by absolute and percentage (although outfits would be sort of hard to display, and much of that could be done by simply reading the stat modifier pages). On Meat costs, again, we'd need feedback. How much is a player (of a certain classification) willing to spend on equipment/buffs? On the adventure sources, I'm not keen on adding them. The "normal" adventures have pretty low modifications (I think the best is +10 Mysticality for Dreams and Lights), and thus would have no effect for all practical applications of the Deity class. The BM adventures (The best stat ones are +50%) are one-time only, require micromanagement to retain them for when you want them to occur, and we'd run into problems with cross-class skills being unavailable (e.g., What Do We Want? allegedly gives Meat drops, but then we'd have to factor in dual-wielding (SC) and passives (Sauceror)). It would look awfully weird for the Deity class to be denied passive skills. --Bagatelle 13:30, 15 December 2007 (CST)
  • Actually, I agree that even the Deity can't sensibly get one-time BM adventure effects at a convenient time. However, is it any less sensible than custom items? I remember when I first started playing that 50k for a store seemed like a lot, I certainly didn't have 700k to spend on equipment. Also, while it's possible to get a reasonable amount of meat quickly, that requires knowing things about the game, for example that clovers are very valuable and can easily be sold to rich players. What would be nice, but a nightmare to actually do and I don't think it would be a good idea on balance, would be if each classification had a total budget their entire outfit. With respect to the classifications, I would happily spend 10m on equipment to help with basement diving, but I wouldn't spend 500 turns under Arse-a'fire (which is ~10k per turn but that would be much higher by the end of my 7th dive). I'm somewhere between Ascender and Villa, if anything I would say that Villans should have a higher equipment budget as they are well ahead of me in just about every other respect. I acknowledge that for a lot of (most?) players, BM isn't much harder than HC, I had always thought of it as being very daunting, probably more so than HCO, because I have 25 HC permed skills and a Mr. Store familiar. I don't really know how much other people would spend on equipment/buffs, hopefully we will get some feedback on this one.--JiK4eva 22:18, 15 December 2007 (CST)

I agree that ascender should get one BM reward and one HCO reward, and that Casual should get one HC reward. This keeps the whole table from continuously slanting towards the stronger players- I remember when Casual barely got anything.

Thanks for rewriting it, I guess. :-) A few comments

• the stat pages have large sections of buffs from items across the board. it makes them hard to read, and lessens the difference between the last 2 types
• for myst and moxie, there are only 2 permed skills for each - the level 0 skills for those classes. this means that bad moon has the potential to give a higher value for every type of player
• I really think these should be focused on basementing, almost exclusively. that means the stat tables for lower player types need to be changed :-/
• oh, and the little redundant section at the top adds whitespace and looks nice --Mar 17:52, 19 March 2008 (CDT)

I've never been a big fan of the classifications and think that they don't reflect anything actually in the game. I often find myself going to the equipment lists for the category to determine what I have that gives me the best set of stats based on what I can own and buy at a given time. I would really appreciate a list sorted by item type (hat, shirt, weapon, etc.) then effectiveness rather than "Deity vs. Apathetic Lizardman" comparisons. --Ithanox 11:45, 18 July 2008 (CDT)

I agree. I, too, have never been a big fan of this classification system. KOL Deity, Apathetic Lizardman ... it's frankly fanboyish and silly. Don't get me wrong entirely, I am glad that a Maximizing chart was started at all, and thankful, but every day these pages get older is a day that it becomes more evident that amateurish artifacts persist in the current version. Almost more bothersome than that, though, is how redundant some of the items in the tables are. I think a much, much better classification system would involve, first, renaming the classifications, then listing the top five items (or fewer, only if fewer than five exist) for a given effect, rather than listing the top two across all five slots when there are more items that supply an effect, however inferior they may be. Example, Weapon selections in the Maximizing Your Meat Drops page lists the bottle-rocket crossbow twice, then three entries of the muculent machette, when there are other weapons that serve low-end Meat drop enhancement, like the penguin whip, that should be options accounted for considering the space exists. Short Version: Rename the ridiculous classifications to something more pseudoprofessional, list the top five items supplying an effect for an item class on its Maximizing page. Nigh Throbbing 02:03, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

And while I'm looking at it, I think the whole section on Equipment/Buff Classification needs to be largely thrown out or revised. Is this page about Dressing for Success, or Dressing for e-Penis? Custom Equipment is not going to be a concern for more than 99% of all players and is not worthy of mention. Ultra Rare items are actually available to anyone. Mafia Prize Raffles ... so what? This is pure self-referential e-Penis validation, all of this KOL Deity, Villa player business. Again, this is supposed to be about Dressing for Success (across several pages of Maximizing), not "if u hav dis den u hav epenis and u r a GOD!!" As I suggested before, if this classification system is instead geared toward simply listing the top five items of equipment (et cetera) available that promote an effect, then we would not need these silly Equipment/Effect budget ratings, or most of this Equipment/Buff Classification section could be deleted - which would reflect its current reality of being totally unnecessary. Nigh Throbbing 02:14, 11 August 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis loot

Where should they go? Deity and Villa? Deity only? -- Tenks 14:03, 29 June 2008 (CDT)

Deity is a given. They get access to all pieces of equipment. I'd say Villa, too, and probably Ascender as well. Possibly with a limit on how many pieces of clan loot you can use for non-deity types. You don't have to be an exceptional player to make a contribution to a Hobopolis run, but getting a bunch of pieces does require time and effort. --Flargen 14:44, 30 June 2008 (CDT)

I'd say Villans should also be allowed unrestricted access. It's in the spirit of "anyone who works hard enough can attain it." I agree that lesser types should have a restricted number. Of more concern to me at the moment is that the guidelines are showing their age, with the recent new content/inflation. Is there anyone interested in commenting on/contributing to a rewrite of the rules? Kinda funny I'm even asking this when the pages haven't been updated since the first rewrite, and the last time only four people bothered to comment... --Bagatelle 22:46, 30 June 2008 (CDT)

Nowhere. Dressing For Success is based off of 150 stat max, and all Hobopolis gear requires 200 stat.--Toffile 19:35, 5 July 2008 (CDT)

Good point, surprised I forgot about that considering I was part of the nay-sayers on the Vibrato stuff. Well, hypothetically that guideline can be updated as well. See Bagatelle's question about updating the rules and such directly above. --Flargen 19:41, 5 July 2008 (CDT)

And now that I think about, this and similar discussions on the maximizing talk pages are really begging the question: do we update the dressing for success standards to allow for stats up to 200? They're currently limited to 150, meaning every piece of hobopolis gear is irrelevant to these pages. Since so many nice items have come out that require stats of over 150 (which I believe was completely unheard of last time standards were drafted), I would think it's time we go ahead and remove the stat requirement/up it to 200. Or maybe just remove it for Villa and Deity and leave the lower tiers at 150 (assuming they're less likely to want to be maximizing stuff after level 13)? --Flargen 21:14, 5 July 2008 (CDT)

I think that we should update it all to 200 mainstat now that Hobopolis has provided high level content. You can now see people at level 15 trying to maximise stats now, so I think it should be updated because it's now relevant, whereas it wasn't before. I'd say give Villa people unlimited Clan Dungeon Loot access, but Ascender no more than 1 from each hobopolis boss.--Melon 09:17, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

I'd say just remove the cap entirely. At the very least, there's no reason for there to be a cap on Dieties since they "represent the theoretical maximum".--Tenks 17:34, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

I've put some discussion points for a rewrite below. I'll put more effort into it if it seems the community is willing to come together and find some consensus on it. Of course, if anyone wishes to bring up additional points, by all means, let's hash it out. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

Tentative Methodology Rewrite July 2008

With the recent addition of new high-level content, the guidelines governing what is and is not available to each character class are becoming less useful. Let's discuss how best to change them, compared to the rules before the Llama Lama/Hobopolis came along; i.e., this revision.

Assumed Stat Level

Issues

1. There is now a huge difference between what a low-character level player can equip, and what a high-character level.
2. It would be nice to be able to calculate the summary rows as in the old revision, combining the percentage boosts with the absolute boosts into one compact number.
3. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

I'd say that for equip requirements, we should junk any assumed stat level, and allow each player class to have base stats as high as necessary. The large spread in equip requirements now makes it more useful for a person looking to boost stats during the ascension game to peruse the complete mechanics table instead. This series is about maximising. We can note the requirements in the first column, below the entry name, if totally necessary. As for calculating percent versus absolute, this is only an issue in the Mus/Mys/Mox series. Perhaps presenting absolute and percent options for each equipment item and/or calculating break-even levels? Obviously, this makes the tables much more complex. The summary rows in this article would also be broken up into percent and absolute in this case. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

• As far as Mus/Mys?mox go, I think it would be better to ignore stats entirely. Yeah, so it would mean that almost all the equipment would be % based and not flat increasers, but they become less relevant as you get to high levels, and the only time someone is going to want to maximise is when they're in the basement and will be a high level. We definately need to allow 200 stat requirement stuff to be equipped now. --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I don't think that will be very useful. See the Maximizing Your Mysticality page for the prime example: it takes an unbuffed myst of 834 to warrant switching to the drywall axe over the listed equipment, and I'm not convinced we need to be catering to that high of a stat. That's pretty close to level 30 for a myst class. Basementers frequently aren't level 30, even at the very end. You only need to go to 30+ if you lack good gear or are getting a level 30 trophy along the way. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
• I think it makes sense to create a new classification of High Level (a la Ascender, Diety), defined to be having access to and ability to wear all high level equipment. Hobopolis was designed to encourage ascending -- it is required to collect all the glyphs, and it may prove useful in order to rebalance your clan's class distribution for the purposes of shows -- so even dedicated Hobopolites will not spend the entirety of their existence able to equip all their high level gear. Thus I think we definitely want to keep the current categories to some reasonable stat limit that is expected to be available upon freeing the king. --alacrity 20:07, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Interesting. I suppose the crux of the matter is what people actually use these pages for. Basementing, PvP, just for giggles to see how high they can get their stats? This is usually only an issue for equipment (though some consumable effects have stat/level requirements). Perhaps the way to go is to show separate equipment entries instead of making a new player classification. This would help to alleviate some of the obfuscation in equipment choices, while keeping some of the cost guidelines. Example below... --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

• That's kind of nice, though it will may introduce a complexity to the tables (with row spanning columns) similar to the Best Foods pages, which are a nightmare to edit, and as a result have a ton of errors that nobody wants to fix. Personally I used the Maximizing... pages for Basementing, and presumably will use them when I start Dungeoning more (while still not being "high level"), and even sometimes while ascending, though I don't expect perfect answers in that case, just perhaps some ideas. They're good for enumerating all the effects that might help you, at least. They've always been a little less universally useful for equipment simply due to the limited number of items listed and no means of specifying 2nd or 3rd best options for given slots. --alacrity 19:02, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Well, the various player classifications are meant to give something of a "2nd or 3rd best option". When they all have pretty much the same item/effect it means "this item is really easily obtained, typically from the mall or an NPC store". This isn't always useful for people in hardcore, but these pages weren't intended for that (since their resources are inherently impossible to predict). Those people would be better served going to pages like Moxie Modifiers and Elemental Resistance to see a list of all possible effects and pick the best ones they have. The Maximizing pages simply cut out the busy work for the "balls to the wall" attempts by the various player types. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

Inflation/Cost

Issues

1. The value of Mr. Store items has risen dramatically in recent months, pulling the value of other items up with it.
2. There have been remarks in the past about restricting costs based on total cost rather than per-item cost. This becomes increasingly relevant as more items are added to the game.
3. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

Shall we tie equipment costs to the value of a Mr. A? Say, Villa allowed to spend up to two Mr. A for a single piece of equipment, Ascender maybe one? The lower classes have low enough ceilings that a firm Meat limit is good enough. Meat guidelines for potions/buffs are OK as-is, I think. Unless we want to do a per-turn cost analysis? On total vs. per-item, I'd prefer to keep it per-item for simplicity's sake. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

• I think the limits on what each class can have should be tighter than it is now. Maybe Lizardman is limited to stuff that they would only find that drops in quest-relevant areas? The one problem I can see now as shown by the meat drops page is that there isn't too much difference between Deity and Villa sometimes, but I'm not sure what sort of meat limit I'd give Villa. --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
  • The similarity between Deity and Villa is because the market is normally pretty stable and slow to inflate. Plus the fact that it's hard to squeeze out that much more than what can be acquired with villa resources. Items and effects just don't scale that much in this game. They do get access to ultra-rares and grimacite, though.
    
    Tying wealth levels into Mr. A's may work. It sort of seems like adopting the gold standard instead of going off of it, though. And we could actually go for a more specific kind of cost restriction, such as: may spend up to a total of X, but with no single item worth more than Y and no 3 items worth more than Z; with X, Y, Z possibly expressed in terms of Mr. A's. This could allow Villa or Ascenders to keep access to at least some of their more expensive items, but inhibiting them from acquiring a full set of marvelous gear through dint of the ever-increasing number of items in the Kingdom. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis AT Buffs

Issues

1. Since there is a casting limit, these will have limited access via buffbots.

Villans+ only? Maybe Ascenders? --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

• I'd agree with Villans+. Since the Hobobuffs can only be cast by an AT onto someone that's level 15+ only a certain number of times per day. --Azrane 21:54, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
• I'd go with Villans+, too. I figure they can usually be assumed to have enough connections, in and out of their clan, to arrange for a reasonable number of adventures worth of these buffs on a fairly regular basis. For ascender and below this is probably too difficult to arrange except maybe once every blue moon or so. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)

Hobopolis Equipment

Issues

1. These are untradable. Several dungeon runs must be completed before a meaningful set can be completed.
2. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

It's been noted above that a number limit might be appropriate. I'd say Villa+ gets unrestricted access. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

• I agree. Maybe ascender gets access to about 3, and the others don't get access to any? --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
• Actually, only some of the items are untradeable. A fair number of them are tradeable. I'll assume you meant this section to be strictly about the untradeables, since the tradeables are handled naturally by the economy and price restrictions for the character types. As for availability, I also agree that Villa+ gets unrestricted access. Ascender should probably get a single piece at best. When I hear "Ascender" I generally assume we're talking about someone who's actively trying to ascend to acquire skills, ascension rewards, and new personal speed marks; and possibly acquire some sort of reputation (through his ascension record) to help his progress into Villa status and to justify getting equipment loans from Villa and Deity-types. So I don't imagine they should be assumed to have put forth that much time post-ascension. 3 pieces tops, definitely, but I'm thinking just 1. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
  • There's a huge gap between "ascending multiple times" and "getting 10 million to visit Hobopolis". Maybe there needs to be a category between "Villa" and "Ascender", maybe "Expert"...someone who truly has enough influence in the actual community to get reliableaccess to Hobopolis. --Listen2Reason 20:59, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
• Acquiring 3 pieces of Hobopolis gear is trivial. Most members of Piglets of Fate and Hogs of Destiny have significantly more than that, and that's with people actively ascending. They just spend some time near the end of their run in Hobopolis, get some loot, and ascend again.--MattG987 13:46, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Trivial for upper-tier player classes. People just starting out will boggle out their eyes when we "suggest" they can attain high-level Hobo loot so early in their careers (I'm working under the perhaps flawed assumption that newer players are going to have a tough time joining a clan with access to the dungeon to grab the untradables--tradables are fair game). There is also the issue with very high-level loot, like the hamster (is this the only example?). --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
• Piglets of Fate is all of the people who want to join Hogs of Destiny, but are new to the game... finding a clan isn't particularly tough. The hamster and Hodgman coat certainly shouldn't be in any of the lower 3 classifications, but the other items (the ones determined by RNG rather than turncount) should be at least in Ascender and Casual. Maybe Casual could have fewer, but Ascender and above should definitely have access to any number of them.--MattG987 04:29, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I'm not the clan-distribution guru, but I'm fairly sure most people aren't in clans that large, and some of the clans as large as that require a substantial donation to the coffer to get hobopolis access (Senam's requires something like 1m I hear, and so do several others). There's a big difference between being in a clan that can do 6 raids a day and being in a clan that can do one raid every one to two weeks (and then they still might have to farm up meat for another raid every so often). If you're in a clan with 2 active members like myself (okay, we have 2 active bots as well, but neither goes into hobopolis), it takes 10-14 days to get one complete raid done; although I get several pieces of loot since there's basically no competition, it's still a substantial time and meat investment (especially that 10m initial cost). I'm probably on the other extreme end of the scale, but the point being that getting these items tends to require a substantial in-game expense (in days, turns, and/or meat) and/or a meaningful amount of effort expended in the community to get into a large clan that can power through dungeons with minimum contribution from yourself (and still give you loot for it). --Flargen 05:17, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Selling the tradeable drops from Hodgman alone is more than enough to cover the cost of a single instance, so cost isn't much an issue. Because of this, Senam's 1mil payment required to enter a dungeon (likely out of his own greed) should not be factored into the restrictions in Dressing for Success. A group of people playing through casually can finish an instance in under 4k turns. And regarding clan size, 2-member clans are as much an extreme as KoL Addict's huge number of players.--MattG987 22:48, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • I think those drops would essentially be a part of their assumed wealth. That's basically how it has always worked; anyone can get an ultra-rare or piece of grimacite, after all, and only have to spend 1 turn or 1k meat to do so. And it makes best sense to let the person who can get the highest +items to kill all of the bosses, so lower tiers probably aren't even going to be in the equation to get these. I wish I had extensive data on how clans in the kingdom are treating non-loot drops; how trustworthy they figure the reporting of these are; if they try to optimize their +items on every boss; their distribution schemes; the breakdown of their dungeoneers by contribution/experience/wealth/etc.; et al. The consummables can be pretty useful for a clan that lacks a full squadron of 7+ divers (that can be coordinated) to get the number of turns needed for a 1 day run, too.
      
      And, incidentally, KoLA last I heard has a 1m clan karma (which takes 2m meat if you use only meat) requirement for the basement. --Flargen 20:50, 25 July 2008 (CDT)
      • Again, you can't base it on extremes like KoLA and Cir Senam's clan. Also, to the commenter before you; what do the consumables dropped by the bosses have to do with the Hobopolis equipment?--MattG987 18:18, 28 July 2008 (CDT)
        • There was no commenter before me. Look at the code (and just how it looks). And the consummables have everything thing to do with your claim that "oh, you can just sell the boss drops and easily pay for the dungeon". That falls under the "each classification has a limited amount of meat to spend" umbrella. --Flargen 21:00, 28 July 2008 (CDT)
        • Sorry, that wasn't clear from either.--MattG987 15:47, 29 July 2008 (CDT)
      • After looking at the descriptions of each class that you're arguing over, it would appear that I fit into casual with my handful of softcore and hardcore ascensions, but I still have 4 pieces of hobopolis equipment. Yes it is expensive to get 11M for that initial run through hobopolis, but even with a clan of 10 people that's only 1.1M a pop. Future runs are 100k for each member and with a little investment into item drops you should be able to get over 7 items per run. Thus far that seems to be under the 4M limit that ascenders have. It is costly, but split across even a seemingly small number of people (ie 10) the cost comes down significantly and then you can sell the items to gain more meat. The 5 frozen dinners you can find in exposure esplanade can net you 250k alone. --Kinsoto 20:15, 29 July 2008 (CDT)

Adventure Buffs

Issues

1. Some buffs take adventures to get; this makes them difficult to stack. Prior to the implementation of the llama, the only adventure buffs granting meaningful effects were Bad Moon adventures. This is no longer true: Path of the Roach.

I think we should allow all non-BM adventure buffs to the Deity class now. Even short ones can be extended with the Platinum Yendorian Express Card, if we want to get totally theoretical on it. Perhaps granting a number limit on lesser classes, based on the duration of the buff/how easy it is to stack with others? (This could get complicated.) Should we explicitly allow BM buffs? I'd say no--with no cross-class skills, this again could way too complicated. --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

They can't be extended for very long, though. 5 turns from a PYEC. And spending the adventures to acquire these effects is usually contrary to the purpose of whatever it is you are maximizing; it would be better to just spend your turns making use of your best gear than to go out of your way to acquire some status effect from an adventure. So I vote no on these. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)

It depends on how hardline we want the definition of "theoretical maximum" to be. Sure, it only extends by five turns, but someone obsessive enough can do that every day without burning turns at all. This could actually end up saving Meat costs in a deep basement dive, but as you said above, maybe we don't need to cater to the 0.0000000001% of that population. Was that a vote for a total no, or a small limit (e.g., Lama buffs)? --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

It was an overall no vote. Llama cockroach buffs are the only thing I might be willing to concede to, since it's "only" a 3 turn investment. Still, I don't see the point. 3 turns of 0% items (0 meat, 0 stats, etc.) so you can get 20 turns with, what is it, 30% more items? Doesn't seem worth it. Maybe only when you're fighting Hobopolis bosses all at once and want as many of the consummables as possible. --Flargen 20:17, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

There are definitely scenarios where one might spend adventures to gain effects for a specific purpose (e.g. acquiring +item buffs before hunting cursed pirates), and with scrap-mechanics, it's often easy to stack effects without using adventures (e.g. Saucerors can get the elemental resist effects and then scrap away to handle basement tests). So I think at least some of them should be included for players that can afford scraps, e.g. Villa and up.--Salien 12:54, 15 July 2008 (CDT)

Ascension Gear

Issues

1. There have been comments in the past that too many player classes are allowed ascension gear.
2. This issue may be resolved by #Gear/Effect Split.

Perhaps the old revision is too permissive. Should Casuals really be allowed a full suite of SS gear? Ascenders all plexi/brimstone/SS? --Bagatelle 20:10, 6 July 2008 (CDT)

• Ascenders should get all the ascension gear I think. Maybe the Casual rank would prefer softcore so don't get any? Maybe casual should show the limit of what's attainable if you never ascend? --Melon 13:47, 8 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Casual should just be softcore. Ascenders can perhaps be allowed to use gear from at most 2 types of ascension, like: plexi/steel but not brim, or brim/ss but not plexi. Villa+ gets all 3 types. --Flargen 21:08, 13 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Perhaps we could add a class? Casual never ascends, so would have access to maybe one set of class-specific skills tops, Ascender is limited to normal ascensions (therefore being able to perm skills but not obtain equipment), and Hardcore Ascender (the new class) is allowed stainless steel and plexiglass equipment. Possibly brimstone as well. Deity should be allowed perfect RNG though - and thus access to adventure-given buffs. It's the theoretical maximum, right? Assume pure awesomeness. Let Villa represent a realistic maximum. --Atheoss 08:50, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
      • I really like the idea of adding a Hardcore Ascender class. While normal ascenders may well have some Stainless, the tables would be more useful if the Ascender class had access to suitably affordable rares and IotMs, and the Hardcore Ascender class had access to Stainless/Plexi. People consulting the table could see both sets of equipment side by side, and optimize between the classes if they had access to both. Particularly since, as has been mentioned, NS13 has raised the bar for obtaining Plexi. Also, a person who doesn't have an ascension reward may well ascend for it later on, but it's not useful to tell him that it's the best thing he can equip right now. --Commiebat 16:29, 16 July 2008 (CDT)
  • I highly disagree with making softcore ascenders unable to use any equipment that is gotten merely by ascending. ss/plexi/brim only has a time cost it has no meat cost so if we assume they can get ss then they can get either of the others as well. I also agree with the idea for a new class (hardcore ascender). --Uberferret 10:05, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • I dunno, the time cost of plexi is significantly more than a regular hardcore run. In the past, there have been complaints about the ascension gear obscuring other, cheaper choices. Anyone care to estimate "average" daycounts for unskilled HC(O)/BM ascensions so we can meaningfully discuss this? Also, the ruleset prior to NS13 didn't allow the third player class plexi gear, so maybe the tables have undergone power creep since NS13. --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Love the project and these optimization pages.
    
    I think the data on these pages should be organized by scenarios.
    
    Hardcore Ascension max, Normal Ascension max, mall and Mr. store. That is the best you can get out when running the senario. I.E. when in hardcore you cant use the stainless steel or plexiglas items. And from the mall.
    
    Often I get irritated that items/effects that are extremely rare and often last 10 rounds max clutter up the tables, might be something I will have to live with but if we can find a way to skip them it would be nice.
    
    If possible we could have a column stating the difficulty/rareness/price range for the objects and effects. Well tall order but if we are making a list for uncle crimbo might as well make it what we wish for not what we will get... --Dagger 15:37, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
    • The pages weren't really designed for players in hardcore. Your options are very limited in hardcore and are pretty much entirely dependent upon luck (short of ascension rewards). As such there's no possible way of handling "in ronin" and "in hardcore", or any other situation where equipment acccess is limited. In those cases you just have to pay attention to your inventory and figure it out (it's usually not that hard). And you can use stainless, plexi, and brimstone in HC; you always get access to the rewards for your previous ascension. Furthermore, those effects can all be readily acquired through the mall at prices well within reason for the indicated character classes (with maybe a few semi-rares that have inflated for various reasons), or even within the game itself. They're also crucial for maximizing pages, as they are much easier to forget or not be aware of than equipment is. And trying to include prices is impractical. A few items have extremely stable prices thanks to massive oversaturation, but most items have variable prices that can fluctuate noticeably from hour to hour. --Flargen 21:08, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

Gear/Effect Split

Issues

1. Maximizing gear and maximizing effects use different methodology

I think a large protion of the difficulty with the Maximizing pages is due to the differences between maximizing gear and maximizing effects. With effects, they usually stack indefinitely, so a user simply wants to see available effects at different powers and costs, and then pile on all the ones they think are worth it; having one effect doesn't mean you don't want other similar effects. With gear, however, many pieces of gear will compete for the same slot; a user wants to see the options for these slots in order from best to worst, and then pop on the best piece of gear they have/can afford, and no longer care about the inferior pieces. As such, I think these pages would be both more usable and easier to maintain if they had 2 sections:

• Effects: These can be organized basically the same way the pages are now, with all applicable effects listed and grouped into different cost tiers (it may be more sensible to group them into cost-per-power tiers, but that might be work work or confusing).
• Gear: Instead of listing each tier and only the single best piece in that tier for each slot, instead list each slot and all applicable gear in descending order of power. Cost can be largely ignored; people are much more likely to know what gear they have access to, or quickly figure out if they have access to it or not, since gear is usually more or less permanently accessible. This would get tricky with effects that span multiple slots (2-handed weapons, outfits) or that are dependent on another slot (familiar equipment is usually dependent on familair), but I think would be more useful overall than the current setup. This is somewhat simialr to the modifiers page, but I think filtering out all the effects and grouping by gear slot makes it very usable for anyone trying to maximize a given modifier.

This split in methodology should render most of the questions about what Hobopolis additions to include where moot; gear is always listed at its appropriate power level.--Salien 16:05, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

• I don't think listing everything is workable--at that point, we may as well just link the full list tables, as they are sortable. Full slot listing also breaks down in the case where there are synergies (e.g., ML of the Vibrato gear). Although maybe you're onto something--perhaps listing the top x items, instead of all (again, suffering from the synergy problem)? I can definitely see breaking down effects by cost per turn--the mutagens are egregious offenders in this department. --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)
  • Yeah, top x items makes more sense; in general, once we get down to gear an apathetic lizardman should have, there's no need to go further down the list. I think that should be workable. As I mentioned, I knew multiple-slot or cross-slot combinations would be an issue; maybe a separate column for multi-slot stuff, listing the slots used? I'm not sure how to use the sandbox on here, else I might try to proof-of-concept a relatively simple page that still has some complications, like Monster Level.--Salien 12:38, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • 'Scuse, evidently I forgot to perm reading comprehension. If it's a small table, you can just slap it onto here. If you want to put it onto a separate page, you can stick it into TheKolWiki:Sandbox, or create a subpage somewhere to play with (e.g., User:Salien/rewrite or Talk:Dressing For Success/rewrite). --Bagatelle 21:49, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
      • Excellent! I slapped together examples for just the gear concept for monster level and combat initiative at User:Salien/rewrite. If anyone else wants to take a look at that and comment, please do!--Salien 00:55, 18 July 2008 (CDT)
        • Hm, I dunno. I'd prefer that synergies be listed explicitly in complete rows, for greater transparency. Though, as noted, that'd take a heck of a lot of effort. But if people are satisfied with a simple list like that, I'd be happy to see it applied as a standard. --Bagatelle 20:27, 19 July 2008 (CDT)
          • I was actually going to ask if doing this would be possible, when I saw it here, Salien...is this the 'new organization' that the boxes at the tops of the pages? I hope so, it is, it's exactly what I wanted! Good job, Salien.--Hdier 10:49, 20 July 2008
            • I want to second Hdier's enthusiasm. Salien, you read my mind. I registered here simply to comment on this. I always find myself between categories. I would be a "non-ascending meat-farmer". I have a full Hodgman outfit but I've only had 2 softcore ascensions. I love what you have but I have two suggestions. One is grouping things of equal value, like they are in the current charts. The other is listing things multiple times like "item (w/outfit)" and "item (w/o outfit)." I know that doesn't solve the whole outfit effects thing, but it's a start. An example would be "porkpie hat (w/offhand, w/o outfit)" and a second entry of "porkpie hat (w/offhand w/ outfit." The modifier could say "+25 (+25 from outfit)." Just a thought, it may not work in all cases. Obviously, it gets complicated for stat modifiers where there are a bajillion pieces of equipment that affect muscle. However, using just the top 10~15 or so might not be too bad, especially if you group ones with equal modifiers. For percent modifiers, I think a whole separate chart would be in order. Someone can just look at their stat, do some quick math and figure out whether they want the best absolute or the second best % modifier. Again, very excited about this. thanks.--Rikitikitavi 15:31, 13 August 2008 (CDT)
  • I'd like to posit that, perhaps, the arbitrary grouping of player types is not ultimately useful. Other than the extremes of 'deity' and 'n00b', most players fall across categories. I can't say that I'm one or another, though I've been around a long time and amassed a large amount of items. I can tell you, though, that I use these pages to see what kind of gear I *should* use - and I scan from left to right (i.e. diety to lizardman) on each slot and equip the best thing that I have. I think that a better way to organize these tables would be to list the "best" X items for each slot. I realize that this will cause some issues when items interact with each other, but I'm sure you smart folks will figure something out.--Gunther Maplethorpe 21:13, 15 July 2008 (CDT)
    • Just wanted to stop by and say: I really like Salien's rewrite. I would find a table organized in that much more helpful than the current configuration, and because of the problem mentioned above: I don't fall into one category cleanly. I am interested in the most useful thing I have access to, regardless of what category of player is "supposed" to have access to it. Even though I haven't ascended yet (I've been basement diving and running hobopolis) I want to get into ascending, so the hardcore rewards will soon be available for my consideration, but I don't want the chart to be useless to me until then. Often I've found, through digging around, that there's an item between two of the categories that's missing: better than the casual one, but possible to get where the ascender item isn't. This is where the chart loses its usefulness for me: I don't need to be reminded which items give which effects, but rather, I just don't have a complete idea of what's out there. Mixie 07:55, 26 July 2008 (CDT)
      • If you want a complete idea of what's out there, you need to consult the full mechanics tables. Like Moxie Modifiers and Items from Monsters. The Maximizing pages are just intended to cut out the busy work for the high-end. An Ascender/Hardcore Ascender split might be nice, but we're definitely going to have to rethink how we present the information. The current tables already cause about an inch and a half of horizontal scrollbar for me, and it'll only get more bloated with more classifications. I suppose with one more class we could just make two tables, one for "Lizard/Casual/Ascender", the other for "Deity/Villa/HC Ascender"; that's kind of a split between the serious power gamer and the more relaxed gamer, too. I should get around to looking at Salien's thing one day... --Flargen 15:34, 26 July 2008 (CDT)
        • I would very much appreciate it if others would look at and comment on this proposal; resposne so far seems positive, it renders the majority of the other arguments in these sections moot, and it allows one to easily and quickly do exactly what these sections should: maximize your gear for that given attribute.--Salien 02:27, 7 August 2008 (CDT)

Day-Intensive Items

Issues

1. BHH stuff takes super long to get.
2. Duct tape, cursed pirate gear, nickel gear/hobo monkey; in general stuff that can't be traded, but takes time/effort to gather.

The BHH stuff here is the biggie. Should Ascenders be allowed the puppy/BHH gear? I.e., should we slap a daycount restriction on? This would be useful as Jick releases more untradable content because "they don't want people to just buy stuff from the mall." The other untradables are generally not so degenerate, or can be handled via Meat (cursed coins cost a lot)/consistency (if you can get Hobo gear, you can get nickels and therefore nickel gear). --Bagatelle 22:49, 14 July 2008 (CDT)

New Class: Bad Moon

Bad Moon players may access buffs that players under no other signs can access. At the same time onnly 1/6 of a class can use a class-specific skill. How do we address this?Ludomonster

• This has been traditionally been handled by ignoring it in the main table and putting applicable information in the Notes section. This is because most of the BM buffs are one-time and last for such a short duration, while you are giving up cross-class skills and bonuses. My vote would be to continue this treatment. This has already been brought up tangentially at #Adventure Buffs. --Bagatelle 20:09, 17 July 2008 (CDT)

Class Dependence

Currently the maximizing pages use some class-specific items. The Legendary Epic Weapons in particular. Should we disallow this or not? With hobopolis there are now a few items which offer percentile stat boosts for only a single class that are competitive with non-class-specific equipments. Perhaps it would be more desirable to move all class-specific equipments to the Notes section. --Flargen 19:43, 9 August 2008 (CDT)

Consensus on anything?

Discussion seems to have died down. Are we willing to say at least a few points have reached a consensus, and maybe just come to a decision on the remaining points? The maximizing pages continue to be mistakenly "updated" with hobopolis stuff, and the Maximizing Your Meat Drops page has been way off current standards almost since Hobopolis got released. --Flargen 20:33, 24 August 2008 (CDT)

• A number of people have chimed in saying they like the "list the top x" idea, and Salien has pointed out that many of the other issues are handled by listing in such a fashion. It seems likely the project will go in that direction. I largely agree with Salien when he says people generally know what they have available better than rigid guidelines on the project page that people obviously aren't reading and never have (...), but then again it's useful to have guidelines in place so people have something to shoot for if they want to improve their max. Waffle waffle waffle. Maybe get rid of player classifications and put mall cost/real-life time investment as some sort of icon ($, $$, $$$, ...) and instead of summarising each player class, just quote Deity as the max and leave people to figure out what they want from the lists? Now that I've re-skimmed over the thread, maybe something like this would work (ML, tweaking Salien's draft):